[Raion]

So it's been a topic of discussion with our staff regarding what we want to do to add value to our userbase. Weblacky had suggested a Premium user lounge area, where people who are patrons or other contributors could get access to a premium-only forum. 

My primary concern with this, as well as Dodoid and Kaigan's concerns are to be paywalling of content, namely any guides or information that would be useful to the wider community. So such a premium lounge would not have that kind of exclusivity, since it would be unfair to users who can't pay for it, or won't. 

So what would a premium lounge entail?

1. Access to any beta features for the site, more direct input/feedback on site changes (Everyone's feedback is important, of course) as they come out, access to early Nekoware II packages (when they're ready) etc. 

2. Potentially guest appearances if we decide to go Youtube to discuss IRIX related content, as well as mentions. Defaultrouteuk and others have discussed us having a youtube presence. I myself wouldn't be opposed to some kind of podcast. 

3. A corner for users to discuss topics that may be drowned out from high signal-noise ratio, or where they want more serious discussion. 

4. Any other suggested features. One of them was to somehow give users a small geocities-like page they could put up basic html for via FTP using something ala akin to armory.com

5. Potentially user email addresses for irixnet.org or something. This one may be hard to implement, but I'm not opposed to it. 

And it would be something like a $10-20 tier on Patreon, or via a Paypal billing agreement or something. 

Of course, the big purpose of this would be to support the site and make it better. We have a lot of ideas in the pipe that I've been wanting to get started on but cost capital.

Please discuss below. If you feel passionate one way or the other, I want to hear. If you think this is a good idea, bad idea, or whatever, we need to know! 

Also, you'll notice that there's now the chartreuse developer class, and the dark red sponsor. These are user classes made to identify people who have contributed. The Sponsor one is currently exclusive to DefaultRouteUK, but the others here are welcomed to join the Developer class if you wish; just let me know.

[Lady Serena Kitty]

DEVELOPURRRRRRR! CODE-KITTIES UNITE!

[defaultrouteuk]

Haha I logged in and saw the red and figured I was in some kind of 'jail'. Thinking if I'd posted something I shouldn't have...happily not.

I'd love to be a developer but the closest I got to developing anything was when my voice broke and I developed acne.

*VALUE*

The price of an item should cover the cost of product plus profit, that much is obvious and surely no-one can disagree. Therefore, we should try not choose an arbitary number yet base it on any tangible costs IN carries for the product/service/project. There should be a roadmap, an associated strategy, milestones and deliverables. It sounds like a crowdfund and in a way I suppose it is, but you are putting your belief in the continual planned delivery of products and services that customers will receive over time. The other value would come in the form of intangible assets and this would include things such as 'thanks' and 'gratitude'.

*SUPPORTING THE SITE*

As stated, IN needs profit from revenue to 'support the site'. At this time the Patreon has a very low subscription rate, that's a shame. The intent and purpose of the subscription is too vague right now, this must be addressed (see plan later) and depends solely on goodwill (goodwill should be encouraged, no amount is too small). Budgets are difficult (impossible) to predict which leads to lack of investment and resetting goals. A predictable cash flow is therefore essential to allow IN to deliver predictable dates for projects and services (see below).

People come and people go from Patreon for a number of reasons, but I suspect the lack of engagement is the general disconnect Patreon seems to have from the content and flow of the IN itself. Your request is simple "please give money to support the site". In return "we'll give you an ad-hoc update on what we're up to". I suspect that no-one really expects an update when they subscribe to the IN Patreon. Simply it is done by the committed few who wish IN to succeed or simply who wish to pay respect to the curator(s) of the content.

Regarding fees I would therefore try to steer away from arbitary numbers at this time and urge a focus on the product you're trying to 'sell' as well as (more importantly) the goals of the project. There can be value in many things and indeed IN has a lot to give. Fundementally we're talking about services (see later) and the sharing of knowledge (see later), mentoring but perhaps there is also simply kindness and camaradarie. The $10 figure thrown here for discussion is to my mind (I assume) a nonsense thrown for discussion. At such a level there will be an expectation for an equal return. I'm not trying to be an asshat, just trying to point out that whatever number is advertised should be calculated based on the actual or else quantifyable value of that product or service. So for me start membership at $0 and work up. Sometimes just giving a tip is enough so don't lock people into one month, set an annual subscription. I'd also set the bar way lower (suggested $0) and instead offer a 'bolt-on' service model with benefits and services rather than the platinum card that locks out potential contributors.

*KNOWLEDGE*

So IMO services can be an easy win for revenues (see below). But I don't actually believe IN is about services. It is about access to knowledge, moreover access to a community and furthermore the quality of the inspiration that is gained from that community. I myself arrived here and took strength by finding like-minded souls and it is something I have embraced fully to the point of mania (I'm taking the meds).

Encouraging inclusivity in the movement behind IN and the focus on developing the future of SGI/IRIX is exactly where effort should be directed. Man-hours (sorry not-sorry for any gender issue) can be a labor of love and that 'free' resource could be encouraged if the bar was set lower. I see there are (or have been) bounties for projects and that's a great incentive. But I see altruistic endeavours of a larger enthusiastic group (you call them foot soldiers I think in Patreon) managed (yes I mean maybe nurtured or mentored) by 'lead devs' responsible for delivery. It's great to be flexible and I appreciate we're trying to get away from the office but certainly for projects I feel setting standards (check) and working to a schedule (flexible) helps students to learn, helps devs to trust their team and helps the community get s*$t done.

Lastly, building with purpose fulfils a plan. Put simply, working the plan literally fulfils every target of IN and its patrons.

Now before I get booted out, I apprecaite this sounds like free labor or that I'm suggesting people to pay for access to education. But seriously was anyone in a group when they were younger or even now. Do you pay for the gym? Did you pay a subscription for a magazine ever? Do you go to school for free? Nah, there is always an exchange or barter. You hand over money for products you want to have. So to you, the value is whatever you gave in one hand and took with the other.

*SERVICES*

There are services under development capable of standing in their own right and yet that *shall* be rendered as IN membership exclusives. These services will have a clear and defined purpose and more importantly a verifiable value for the customer. In all cases services should be a 'bolt on' to membership and therefore carry an equitable subscription fee to be defined in the spirit of the IN project.


CLOSING ARGUEMENT

I believe the true value of IN may be in the people and by extension the content and knowledge they share. The membership, the subscribers, the hobbyists. So why not ask for volunteers to be mentors for subject matter experts in specific areas. Ideas for content....system administration, programming, media manipulation, 3D rendering, story telling. Build and extend the existing vast library of content and help to support the IN vision by offering early access to content sponsors (members).

Damn - I ranted for ever. Sorry, I'm just gonna post this and let it ride.

Cheers Kaz! Change is good and appreciate the recognition as always.

EDIT: Typos

[defaultrouteuk]

Haha I logged in and saw the red and figured I was in some kind of 'jail'. Thinking if I'd posted something I shouldn't have...happily not.

I'd love to be a developer but the closest I got to developing anything was when my voice broke and I developed acne.

*VALUE*

The price of an item should cover the cost of product plus profit, that much is obvious and surely no-one can disagree. Therefore, we should try not choose an arbitary number yet base it on any tangible costs IN carries for the product/service/project. There should be a roadmap, an associated strategy, milestones and deliverables. It sounds like a crowdfund and in a way I suppose it is, but you are putting your belief in the continual planned delivery of products and services that customers will receive over time. The other value would come in the form of intangible assets and this would include things such as 'thanks' and 'gratitude'.

*SUPPORTING THE SITE*

As stated, IN needs profit from revenue to 'support the site'. At this time the Patreon has a very low subscription rate, that's a shame. The intent and purpose of the subscription is too vague right now, this must be addressed (see plan later) and depends solely on goodwill (goodwill should be encouraged, no amount is too small). Budgets are difficult (impossible) to predict which leads to lack of investment and resetting goals. A predictable cash flow is therefore essential to allow IN to deliver predictable dates for projects and services (see below).

People come and people go from Patreon for a number of reasons, but I suspect the lack of engagement is the general disconnect Patreon seems to have from the content and flow of the IN itself. Your request is simple "please give money to support the site". In return "we'll give you an ad-hoc update on what we're up to". I suspect that no-one really expects an update when they subscribe to the IN Patreon. Simply it is done by the committed few who wish IN to succeed or simply who wish to pay respect to the curator(s) of the content.

Regarding fees I would therefore try to steer away from arbitary numbers at this time and urge a focus on the product you're trying to 'sell' as well as (more importantly) the goals of the project. There can be value in many things and indeed IN has a lot to give. Fundementally we're talking about services (see later) and the sharing of knowledge (see later), mentoring but perhaps there is also simply kindness and camaradarie. The $10 figure thrown here for discussion is to my mind (I assume) a nonsense thrown for discussion. At such a level there will be an expectation for an equal return. I'm not trying to be an asshat, just trying to point out that whatever number is advertised should be calculated based on the actual or else quantifyable value of that product or service. So for me start membership at $0 and work up. Sometimes just giving a tip is enough so don't lock people into one month, set an annual subscription. I'd also set the bar way lower (suggested $0) and instead offer a 'bolt-on' service model with benefits and services rather than the platinum card that locks out potential contributors.

*KNOWLEDGE*

So IMO services can be an easy win for revenues (see below). But I don't actually believe IN is about services. It is about access to knowledge, moreover access to a community and furthermore the quality of the inspiration that is gained from that community. I myself arrived here and took strength by finding like-minded souls and it is something I have embraced fully to the point of mania (I'm taking the meds).

Encouraging inclusivity in the movement behind IN and the focus on developing the future of SGI/IRIX is exactly where effort should be directed. Man-hours (sorry not-sorry for any gender issue) can be a labor of love and that 'free' resource could be encouraged if the bar was set lower. I see there are (or have been) bounties for projects and that's a great incentive. But I see altruistic endeavours of a larger enthusiastic group (you call them foot soldiers I think in Patreon) managed (yes I mean maybe nurtured or mentored) by 'lead devs' responsible for delivery. It's great to be flexible and I appreciate we're trying to get away from the office but certainly for projects I feel setting standards (check) and working to a schedule (flexible) helps students to learn, helps devs to trust their team and helps the community get s*$t done.

Lastly, building with purpose fulfils a plan. Put simply, working the plan literally fulfils every target of IN and its patrons.

Now before I get booted out, I apprecaite this sounds like free labor or that I'm suggesting people to pay for access to education. But seriously was anyone in a group when they were younger or even now. Do you pay for the gym? Did you pay a subscription for a magazine ever? Do you go to school for free? Nah, there is always an exchange or barter. You hand over money for products you want to have. So to you, the value is whatever you gave in one hand and took with the other.

*SERVICES*

There are services under development capable of standing in their own right and yet that *shall* be rendered as IN membership exclusives. These services will have a clear and defined purpose and more importantly a verifiable value for the customer. In all cases services should be a 'bolt on' to membership and therefore carry an equitable subscription fee to be defined in the spirit of the IN project.


CLOSING ARGUEMENT

I believe the true value of IN may be in the people and by extension the content and knowledge they share. The membership, the subscribers, the hobbyists. So why not ask for volunteers to be mentors for subject matter experts in specific areas. Ideas for content....system administration, programming, media manipulation, 3D rendering, story telling. Build and extend the existing vast library of content and help to support the IN vision by offering early access to content sponsors (members).

Damn - I ranted for ever. Sorry, I'm just gonna post this and let it ride.

Cheers Kaz! Change is good and appreciate the recognition as always.

EDIT: Typos

Actually don't shoot me but maybe I missed the point. What I understood was maybe something like a night club. There is a small entry fee right? You get to dance and go to the bar where you can buy drinks. If you want food you need to get a table and maybe there's a minimum spend for the 'table'. So you and your friends chip in and you get a table. Then a bunch more turn up so you get a private booth. Then you figure screw it we're ballers so you hire a suite. 

Is this workable?

[Raion]

Thank you DefaultRouteUK. As always extremely helpful and insightful. I think that you hit a lot of good points here. Maybe Weblacky, Kaigan, Dodoid and others can input their own thoughts publicly on what we should envision for this.

[weblacky]

Hmm,
I'd have to really give this more thought on the overall appeal, but my immediate reaction is that I want a couple things (possibly these are related, possibly they should be separate ideas, possibly not all are premium).

1. I want a place to discuss ongoing specific projects and efforts (without that posted info being leaked out to the community at that time), a subforum of invited people were we can access wikis, image storage, and discussion that are focused on an effort (software, hardware, sourcing, whatever) and have that NOT be seen by the outside public. I know this sounds like info hiding...and it is. I don't want half-baked info or a project start-ups to get stolen or misinterpreted or used. We can released items when they are done and everyone involved has decided on any needed redaction...but give us a secret area to develop it & discuss it in. Perhaps this idea is better served a "personal site" that happens to have these features. Maybe each top-tier premium user gets a subsite domain off the main one with a basic Wiki/image & file storage allocation/allowed users from the main site. That would serve the same purpose in a pinch.

2. Swag, SGI shirts (system colors), pewter charms, and the like...not free but reasonably priced...perhaps even a random drawing of give away of some of it every month among paid users? Something like an SGI logo (from like an Indigo2) but as a backpack zipper pull tab? High-end Vinyl Stickers of various sizes, fabric patches with System Image and logos (each system + it's PROM stylized name on a patch) collect all the patches for your systems, CNC milled PROM Stylized named coasters and glasses, SGI Earrings (not judging), SGI window Decal, etc...

3. Verified Status!!! I've talked about this before...but If premium members make up the core of startup efforts (for me, it may be PSU repair). I want to be a verified site member, I'll hand over additional info and my identity/driver's license image to the Site owner/operator (stored OFFLINE in a file cabinet only, please). We can then discuss what that gets me. With this info I cannot disappear (unless I die) during a transaction. Verified gets you a badge on your icon and the knowledge when using the marketplace that the operator is satisfied he really KNOWS the identity of this person. I think high-risk merchants should have to do this anyway...but I won't push that, but I don't want a total flea market.

4. Our OWN marketplace to sell/trade/lend/borrow/cross-ship items for use in projects and testing. For example, Let's say I repair a PSU but don't have the system it belongs to, I need someone with the guts (or a really crappy system) to be the guy to try it out. Or I want to take measurements with equipment I have and I need a system to borrow (I don't own the right SGI system). If I could place money in escrow/CC and borrow a working and but heavily damaged system or PCB board to scan, then I could effectively gather info on systems I don't own.

Hopefully this is a made-up scenario, but tool lending, or borrowing could be a thing if we trusted each other enough. I think premium members can do that when verified, perhaps if we pay into a fund against theft/loss among premium members (for backing the premium marketplace - like up to $700 or whatever if the verified member skates town or purposely steals/destroys something). We could use a portion of our yearly dues to back it, should nothing happen the money gets used for betterment or rebate on next year's dues or something. But using member subscriptions to back member actions to increase confidence but to also let people know that there will be serious/real consequences for theft/fraud.

5. Personalized color theme, I'd like to alter the pallet of how I view the site and perhaps individualized themes?

6. Content and Graphics creation requests. I have like a ton of ideas...I don't know ANYONE who can make them come true...nor what that would cost. If we have members that are professional graphic artists and such. I'd love to see samples of work and the ability to request/pay for work related to SGIs. So once you get a collection of stylized content you're basically reusing those system images and logos to create SGI-related content as a product. I'm not saying this should be free, it would be nice to "know a guy" that can pull that kind of stuff off for a fair consumer price. This person would likely be the one creating the awesome swag graphics! I'd love to be able to do requests.


I'd like premium members to be able to connect better and more, to trust enough to offer services, to hear references from those services and to basically be able to be comfortable giving items and knowledge to another person to help myself or for me to help them and not have it feel shady or anonymous. I won't force anyone to be sociable or anything, but I don't want to wear masks and hide. Maybe once things are really rolling having like group video introductions or scheduled regional events MIGHT be a thing (doubtful, but I'll propose it anyway). I don't know anyone in my area that does this stuff, SGI specifically. So I'd be cool to find out if someone's local and strike up a conversation. Again, not looking to mingle...but build out an SGI social circle to help with my SGI projects.

[Raion]

Bear with me since you dropped a bombshell here Weblacky:

1. Yes, that's the idea with the premium lounge. You can draft articles privately, you can discuss things that you are working on that aren't ready for prime time, and most of all, you get communication from me and other staff here. 

As far as a subsite, basically what I was considering was something akin to Geocities, something like either "irixcities" or "unixcities" which would be in beta and be a place for you to FTP up files, static pages etc. PHP and other things may be a premium feature, and everyone on unixcities would be either a subdomain or a subdirectory. 

2. See the attached image for merchandise. We've shared it in the past, the response has been lukewarm. I'm willing to find a better print on demand service for this stuff, we also have stickers and such in that store. 

3. I don't want to be filing user PII. That's a serious legal landmine and I don't want to be sued, furthermore, I don't even own a filing cabinet... But my thinking is, if you're willing to fork over either money or labor/sponsoring as DefaultRouteUK does for us now, then it's worth enough to give everyone a place to chat. The marketplace moreorless is the closest compromise I can have without vastly increasing overhead, and I think the feedback system speaks for itself! I'm not opposed to trying to help moderate big/expensive transactions, but there's a lot of legal issues here. Namely, in most US States and European countries, you need to be licensed to be escrow. Yes, you can forgo that, but it's potentially illegal and I'm not in the business of skirting the law like that. 

4. I'm not opposed, but the feedback plugin would need reworking to hide certain categories from normal users, so this could represent a leak. 

5. I already have three color themes, but I can't just go in and give you a colorpicker or make a million custom CSS themes. If you have a mockup you want and you can explain what elements you want change (Inspect Element in most browsers) I can probably make a custom template for you. 

6. Yeah, I want to eventually get artists here, but it's a high entry point to have someone do the work on an  IRIX system. If we can get our own versions of graphics tools (i want to help sponsor a fork of GIMP or Cinepaint eventually for IRIX usage) then I'm all for it. That's a lot of money I don't have though. 

Events: Yes, I've talked about doing events in Richmond/Newport News, VA or Las Vegas, NV. I won't do it on the West Coast or the Northeast or the Rust Belt though, so that's a substantial travel cost for people to undergo in many cases. 

Etc: All good ideas, we just need time, money etc. Incrementalism, you know?

[weblacky]

While the thumbnails are small, I like many of them. I kind of like the idea of collecting system buttons/stickers/patches if they are done really well. I'll be frank, I'd like shirts in system colors with the Stylized System name text printed really big on them...and maybe a lighter version of the system color to be the system's monochrome silhouette on the shirt pocket.

I'm not a huge fan of the IrixNet shirts, I'd be more willing to show support for the content of SGIs, not so much a specific website. Timelessness. A nod, those in the know....know. I'd make the damn things myself, accept I cannot operate anything other than a simple CAD program to draw to save my life! Why was a given all these ideas with no way to implement them! Man, first-world problems :-)

[Raion]

> I'd like shirts in system colors with the Stylized System name text printed really big on them

There's an issue with that. Several of those are trademarked and the trademarks are still active. So I can't do cubes (apocrypha shirts are out there, but that's considered somewhat transformative) Also, for those that aren't, the design stuff they give you is often not able to load custom fonts, and you're limited in selection/design. I could go with a different provider, totally open to that. But it has to work, and there's oftentimes people who could do that better with me.

The original point of the Irixnet shirts was for VCF East 2019 - I didn't get them done in time though. I've not touched the store in ages, but some people weren't satisfied with it so I'm not opposed to a do-over, just need to find a good provider who can do 5XL or higher for some users who are big guys, and more. And I can't use local shops here. It's too expensive and I don't want to bother with shipping them myself. There's also a few I won't deal with for moral reasons.

[soviet]

Considering this forum have such an small amount of active users, even deserves the all the work to build a premium lounge ?.