[tomvos]

One of the most important elements of vintage computing for me is the preservation of information about these systems. There's a fair amount of documentation out there, but there can always be more.

Preservation is one aspect, availability is the other aspect.  There are a lot of pretty interesting old systems out there that don't get much attention.  Mostly, I think it's because the documentation (and OS) are hard to find today.

Putting information about Silicon Graphics and Irix behind a paywall might hurt the community in the long run.  It creates a barrier making it harder for new people to decide whether they want to enter the community.

[weblacky]

While I can agree to some of that, let's be fair:

A. Irix OSes are already on Archive.org...boom done, free.
B. Hosting all that data costs bucks, making it all free is going to break the bank sooner or later. I can appreciate the trying and the thought. But after hearing the IrixNet data transfer numbers...who's paying for that? I know the whole abandonware is a slippery slope here, I don't have a great answer other than my previous of CD collections via Images you purchase (which is the way other dealers do it :-).
C. The official SGI User Info is still very much free at the moment (from the crater Nekochan didn't take out): University sites, FAQ mirrors, TechPubs hosting, Etc..
D. Most of the simple stuff is either in the TechPubs or you figure out with tinkering, like some of us had to do 20+ years ago.

My old boss used to have a saying: Think twice before putting out free coffee, because eventually when you have to cut the budget and thus the free coffee, people will be up in arms. They forget it's free and not a right. It's easy to give something away, hard to take it back. I'd be wary about what I'd put out for free.

Also you're turning the idea of premium on it's head. It's less about taking something away and more about incentivizing additional work that wouldn't otherwise be feasible or get done in a totally free online community. There is a reason incentivising works, why should I invest very real time and money into repairing SGIs, only to give it away for free? How exactly could anyone afford that? When someone uses real skills and equipment (like any tradesman) that adds value, getting paid for it encourages it. I'm not so cheap that I would expect people to hand me answers for free on serious/hard issues. While I cannot pay as much as a business (because this doesn't make me money), it's not fair to tax those that have resources into giving them away, that's what makes people give up participating because they feel used and no longer feel rewarded.

Yes, I think we all feel some reward from helping out a new person with a trivial issue and get them going, that's fine and I'm happy to do that sometimes...not all the time (it's grinding) and sometimes (just like "what's wrong with my car"), it gets real serious. I'd love to have serious collectors that have built-up skills and such be able to do something about those problems people post, even if it costs some money. Versus right now...no one can do anything, except try to sell you a replacement.

A Premium place allows for the exploration of such things. It doesn't really mean PAYWALL.

[Raion]

Hi Tomvos,

I'll address any concerns you brought up firstly:

1. If we go through with this, I'll be ensuring any information ready for primetime or of immediate benefit for the community is released without delay. Only WIP guides or information of minimal concern would be released on a premium lounge.

2. I won't be paywalling any of our current hosting because doing so would increase copyright infringement penalties should I ever be sued, and would afaik remove some DMCA safe harbor conditions. I could be wrong, but I haven't done extensive research.

Any mirrors of data I could no longer host I would offer to other people well in advance. Defaultrouteuk has sponsored us a massive server though, so we are all good there for the foreseeable future.

And let me bring up another question someone asked me recently:

Would I paywall the site for adblockers? That's a big fat NO. I cannot stand ads in normal websites, so there's no way in hell I would ever subject anyone here to such a nuisance. I stopped using entire car forums that were stingy enough to do that.

[kaigan]

Putting information about Silicon Graphics and Irix behind a paywall might hurt the community in the long run.  It creates a barrier making it harder for new people to decide whether they want to enter the community.

I didn't mean to suggest that such information would be permanently paywalled. I'm completely against that. All such information should be made available publicly and for free. Any form of exclusivity would be short-lived and would serve as a way for patrons to provide additional feedback on the material before it's release. And, of course, once publicly released, any additional feedback can be incorporated as well. I'm thinking of this concept mostly for something like YouTube videos and not text guides for the forums or the like.

[defaultrouteuk]

Hi Comrades,

@kaigan said it best here as 'any form of exclusivity would be short-lived'. That's really the pivot of any patreon channel I ever subscribed to. The exclusivity of the membership usually offers a window of opportunity and that feeling of being first in the queue regarding content and/or features. There is usually a flow-off after a period of time. However I would differ in some way as I believe there should always be some level of exclusivity, something that means something to the subscriber. There should be value or else it dilutes the value of the membership and narrows the subscriber pool. To my mind, and in full agreement with @tomvos (et al.) any exclusivity should certainly not create a knowledge/sharing bias but rather perhaps be service or recognition based.

There are probably three kinds of patrons; altruists who do something but expect no thanks, investors who put time and effort into building something and want something back, and finally members who want to be part of something and want to feel appreciated. What makes them all patrons however makes is that they give to the community in some way. At the moment, the community takes for the most part and that's a missed trick because now the R&D effort is restricted to a few who fit one small bracket.

So I'm interested to see what features can generate interest. I like that @raion is taking the attitude to try some stuff and drop what doesn't work. That makes complete sense. The good news is that something should be happening and I'd rather that than acquiesce into obsolescence.

EDIT: pointless first sentence.

[Raion]

Exactly. I want to expand our operations, see what works, what doesn't, get community feedback etc.

A few things to note, since people are having questions:

1. Will we ever bring back discord or irc?

Any solution that I would personally, as a team member, endorse, would have to require regular participation on our forums, and access would have to be controlled through that. We have a few ideas stewing at the moment, but it'll be some time before they're really 100% realized. That being said, it would take three of us to overrule me on this issue. I don't think anyone's prepared to put in the time to maintain another live discussion platform other than myself, if that counts for anything.

2. What's the timeline for implementing these and changing the patreon?

Based on feedback provided, I'm currently in the process of setting up many of the pieces we need to make this work. Once I have something concrete, we can go from there. There will be multiple options for recurring payment, including Patreon, direct Paypal monthly billing agreements, and a yearly sum at a discount.

I want things to remain integrated, so access control will be prioritized.

3. What will be the primary aim of the collected money?

Paying for development bounties, paying developers for nekoware II and web dev stuff, in no particular order.

[Raion]

So let me discuss a few updates. DefaultRouteUK and I have been going back and forth bikeshedding. We're going to be overhauling the Patreon with our new tiers soon.

Among the things we've decided on:

1. A premium forum area
2. Potentially some kind of RTC, at first it's going to be exclusive to paying users.
3. A service called irixcities. Basically, this is for you to develop your own HTML pages for serving in a geocities-like service. You'll get basic storage, HTML/CSS support, and some filestorage
4. A VPN service for use for multiple things, including LAN parties, access to compute services for IRIX etc.
5. A web rendering proxy service.

Some of these goals are lofty, but DefaultRouteUK is willing to underwrite and help them. We're also looking for volunteers who may be willing to join the conversation and offer help in implementing these.

In other news, we got a new major feature possibly coming to the forum. Unrelated to everything else going on right now.

[Lady Serena Kitty]

I might pawssibly maybe could be able to halp with some stuffies.

Also I think the Premium forum and Premium status should be called "Purremewum".

[defaultrouteuk]

   

Premiering on IRIXNetwork this Fall.

[Lady Serena Kitty]

Premiering on IRIXNetwork this Fall.

I am the Kitty, resistance is futile. Your memeness has been added to my own.