hello network, lots of questions
#31
RE: hello network, lots of questions
Looks like Ian is missing some info on some CPU models. There was a 550MHz R14K as well.

To be honest, I doubt any 400MHz R12K systems left the factory with an 0887 mainboard and the cube logo skins. That CPU just happens to be the fastest that still functions with the 0887 mainboard.

My first Octane was technically an in between (1.5 gen?) Octane: new logo green skins, single 300MHz R12K, SE graphics, new PSU but old mainboard. I bought it around the time these things started to appear off-lease and was completely unmodified. I think it's still sitting in my attic. I think the 270MHz CPU was introduced shortly after the 300MHz R12K and that one requires the newer '1467' mainboard.

I have an Octane 2 as well, and when that system was upgraded from dual 400MHz to dual 600MHz the old CPU was left behind. There was a thread at some point on Nekochan I think about what would be the ultimate 1st gen Octane. At that time I had this particular system sitting, I think it was originally a dual 250MHz MXE or maybe dual 300MHz. Cube logo skins, 0887 mainboard. I simply put the dual 400MHz CPU in. I still have this system but instead of the secondary SE card it now has a video option. It also has a PCI cage with gig ethernet, LVD SCSI and FibreChannel.

There have been 2 Impact and 2 VPro graphics generations, 2 PSU generations, 3 skin generations, 2 mainboards and 3 or 4 frontplanes. I believe most people would call something a 1st gen Octane if it has the 0887 mainboard, Impact graphics and the cube logo skins, but of course with all these revisions there's plenty room for discussion. I don't remember SGI talking about generations other than calling the blue box with the VPro graphics an Octane2.
jan-jaap
SGI Collector

Trade Count: (0)
Posts: 1,048
Threads: 37
Joined: Jun 2018
Location: Netherlands
Website Find Reply
11-07-2024, 11:05 AM
#32
RE: hello network, lots of questions
i'm a bit confused by the scsi adapter requirements, most of these are 68pin scsi ultra320. i thought we needed 80pin? no scsi cards i have found use 80pin connectors. i could do some kind of adapter on top of it i guess? i'd be getting this card here since i need pcie: https://www.ebay.com/itm/126761016079
and then i have to buy the wiring and terminator stuff, and adapter to 80pin, it could get expensive. and then on top of that i have to figure out the old version linux situation if it supports modern chipset or anything on my pc, crap! so i don't know... but i won't be getting another sgi anytime soon so i can't break in from another sgi.

oh wait, i just noticed you said i can put it as the next slot as a non-boot drive. yeah that should work! OK i'll try to find some drive sleds to do that.

i know one person got lucky using a brute force password cracking app but his pass was only 8chars long. i'm not sure what the typical password len is or the char limit of root passes on irix. someone mentioned there may also be some kind of irix vulnerabilities that could be exploited.

also i thought octane2 configs started at 400mhz and up. i could be wrong here but i think maybe my cpu got swapped in from a older octane1 and wasn't a factory option.

for skins there was octane1 teal colored skin w/ cube logo, octane1 green skin w/ cube logo, octane1 green skin modern logo, octane2 blue skin modern logo? which came first the teal or the green?

Octane2 mine!   ...played with in the 90s & long gone: Octane O2 Indigo2 R10000/IMPACT
(This post was last modified: 11-07-2024, 11:57 AM by echo.)
echo
Octane2

Trade Count: (0)
Posts: 30
Threads: 3
Joined: Oct 2024
Location: usa
Find Reply
11-07-2024, 11:53 AM
#33
RE: hello network, lots of questions
The hard drives are not encrypted, so there is no need to "break in" to anything. You can simply read what is on the disk and copy it to another volume if you want to do that.

80-pin drives only connect to backplanes. It should not be difficult to find them, here is just the first search result.
The backplane connects to your power and SCSI cables, not the drive.

If what you want to do is bypass the password so you can use the Octane with its existing system disk, there is no real security preventing that. Once you load the IRIX installer from a CDROM or the network, you can change the password from there.

Personaliris O2 Indigo2 R10000/IMPACT Indigo2 R10000/IMPACT Indigo2 Indy   (past: 4D70GT)
robespierre
refector peritus

Trade Count: (0)
Posts: 640
Threads: 3
Joined: Nov 2020
Location: Massholium
Find Reply
11-07-2024, 05:09 PM
#34
RE: hello network, lots of questions
It depends on what kind of modern computer you have. If you're running a modern like Windows 10 or Windows 11 system with a lot of storage space the easiest thing to do is the simple use hyper-v or virtual box and install an older copy of Linux there.

The easiest way is to create a DD image of the drive on another machine and just transfer it to an older virtual machine running the appropriate software. You don't necessarily have to match the hardware and the software as long as you have the storage space.

For an example you could get an old machine and runner older Linux, or you get a newer machine and a newer Linux it shouldn't matter as long as you have normal PCI or PCIe bus to run a SCSI card, get the needed ribbon and adapter/converter for the drive along with the drive itself. And again I would get a small fan or a desk fan placed on another table to prevent vibration to blow air on it if the drive is a large volume it's going to take a while.

Then take the giant blob with a disk image and transferred it into a VM that has the older software.

FYI I found the change log for XFSprogs:  https://fossies.org/linux/xfsprogs/doc/CHANGES

Irix FS support was officially removed AFTER version xfsprogs-4.9.0 (5 Jan 2017).

It would take too long to describe everything about SCSI to you and you'll end up learning it anyway if you keep reading other places so I'll just show you the basics. As most people are saying SE, stands for single ended, was basically the first parallel SCSI standard. Low-voltage differential, known as LVD, came afterwards but has a special mode to detect being on an SE bus and downgrade itself correctly. There's also often a jumper you can place on the drive that forces it into SE mode to begin with which is often helpful.  Not every LVD device on the planet can do this but it's extremely common for most consumer hard drives. There is a way to check this easily using the standard logo printed on the drive, explained farther down.

There's a 50 pin interface that a couple different external ports use and then there's a 68 pin interface that a couple of ports use and the difference between them is an eight bit bus versus a 16 bit or higher bus known as a wide bus. Wide buses use 68 pins or more. Narrow buses use 50 pins or potentially less on the older standards before SGI's really came around.

A brand new LVD disk understands what a 50 pin SE bus is you just have to adapt it with the appropriate adapter card.  No the cards are not expensive they should be around under $30 US these days.

The entire SCSI bus runs at the lowest standard of device hooked to the chain. So just because you buy an ultra 320 drive doesn't mean it's going go at that speed. You could wind up at a good 10 MB a second if you attach it to a slower speed chain with a bunch of slower speed devices. They all work at the same bus rate as a limitation.

The buses must be terminated, this is either done internally in the controller or with a small card at the end of the ribbon if it's a modern SCSI bus. Older SCSI buses could be terminated with a special jumper at the last hard drive. But LVD drives don't have such a jumper because the LVD standard cannot be terminated using the last drive on the chain. There must be a physical terminating circuit attached to the last port in the ribbon cable on an LVD bus.

Your octane uses two separate controllers. One controller is in charge of the three slots inside the case. This is AUTO terminating and AUTO set. Which is why they chose SCA 80 interface drives. Not only were they cheaper but all you have to do is shove them in and turn the system on and their SCSI ID and SE mode and everything else is already set by the back plane!  In fact zero jumpers for configuring a new hard drive.

The rear port is an ultra wide 68 pin high density connector. It's run by a totally separate controller and hence is a separate chain. It does not share a bus with the internal drives. They are not all on one bus each bus is totally separate from the other. This means they can run at different speeds where you could put an old SCSI scanner on the external SCSI port that runs at SCSI-2 speeds but still run SCSI-3 ultra wide speeds internally.

This would allow a slowly external device (CDROM) to operate without slowing down your internal devices. If they were all on the same bus and you attached an old scanner to the back of the machine then the entire bus has to run at the speed of the scanner face. You wouldn't want that. That's why there's two separate channels/buses.

Because SCSI can have some complex nuances but it was actually made to be pretty easy with the understanding that everything on the consumer market was usually downward compatible. If you had an old Mac as long as you got the right adapter for your case or an external enclosure to put the adapter and drive in a metal box to give you a higher interface you could attach it to your old system and you'd be fine. The signaling standards can't be intermixed: SE, LVD, HVD. HVD stands for high-voltage differential and as a standard you will stay very far away from and never interact with at all. The SCSI symbols that you see on the device actually indicate the standard.

https://iec.net/home/technical-informati...i-symbols/

Note that there is a logo of the standard where you can market device as LVD that is unable to downgrade to an SE. You can easily see the symbol on the label of all these hard drives to make sure you know what you're buying.

Oh very clever from a compatibility and intermix standpoint.

To do a drive imaging you cannot adapt an SE drive to an LVD bus. It ain't gonna happen. So for that reason if you're imaging hard drives you're often going to use an SE bus and then an adapter card to downgrade the LVD device to SE. So all you have to do is buy an old card with a 50 pin ribbon cable narrow SCSI-2 bus. Get the adapter card to adapt an SCA 80 drive to a 50 pin narrow SCSI-2 and you're done. Now granted the price of these has gotten higher over the years because this used to be considered trash that most people threw away. So you're dealing with those that didn't get thrown away. But even so you shouldn't be into it for more than $100 at a reasonable cost to get a working well-known adaptec card like an adaptec 2940UW on PCI or a higher cost Adaptec 29160 on PCIe for more...

All of those have a 50 pin narrow interface that comes out the back of them for CD-ROMs and things like that. Just use that with a narrow ribbon and get a cheap adapter to downgrade to LVD and you'll be fine. Cooling is the only other issue you'll have in the environment if you're doing this for an hour or more.

Microsoft tried to sabotage SCSI starting at Windows 8. Technically Windows 7 drivers seem to work in a lot of places but there's no guarantee. A lot of interface technologies were purposely damaged or ruined starting at Windows 8 because Microsoft made a decision. I don't know the intricacies of that decision but that's why a lot of old interfaces suddenly dropped off the planet around that time.

Windows 7 was the last modern like operation support parallel SCSI in all its forms.  Windows XP was the last OS to support parallel port scanners and parallel port drive interface technology as well as I think infrared IrDA and a few other similar tech technologies.

Having a Linux laptop that has a a card bus slot could be of used to you because you can run cardbus adapters for SCSI using external adapters and an external enclosure and read drives out that way. There's a few sun microsystems enclosures that support SCA 80 to 68 pin Ultra Wide internally.

That would make that kind of reading to be pretty slick. But that's probably going run you a couple hundred dollars.

FYI, there are other forms of SCSI that are not parallel SCSI.  Parallel SCSI means it uses these big connectors and a ribbon cable internally. There are other forms of SCSI such as fiber channel SCSI, Serial attached SCSI, even virtual network using iSCSI.  Some of these were available for SGI, none of them can be used to boot Irix from.  Irix can only be booted from an internal mainboard controller and often cannot be booted from an external add-on card even if the add-on card has a driver under Irix.  There might be one exception for fuel and Tezro using a fiber channel adapter as there was a prom upgrade for fiber channel support. So that might be possible but every other combination is not possible.

So while you can get adapter cards for certain SGI's to go with other faster SCSI standards you still can't boot the operating system off them.  For example there should be a way to put a faster SCSI adapter card in the PCI card cage of an octane to have a faster external speeds than what it has internally. That still does you no good in running the operating system any faster.

Unlike a Windows or potentially an older Mac machine, you cannot add hardware to produce another drive controller that you can boot from on SGI. So if you have a damaged internal controller that's it you're done with that motherboard. You have to boot from the drives internal controller then load drivers for other faster peripherals that came later.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2024, 02:17 AM by weblacky. Edit Reason: SCSI )
weblacky
I play an SGI Doctor, on daytime TV.

Trade Count: (10)
Posts: 1,716
Threads: 88
Joined: Jan 2019
Location: Seattle, WA
Find Reply
11-08-2024, 01:19 AM
#35
RE: hello network, lots of questions
Not to repeat myself (but, and as is well known hereabout, (because there's nothing I more prefer than repeat myself)), but I use my Octane2 for exactly two things (neither of which you could/can buy the equivalent of, today, for less than 25,000 US), Pro/ENGINEER and OpenGL. Well, okay, OpenGL is now open source, but really no one uses it for anything that's not commercial, for which they pay stupid MS fast fortunes.

Project: Temporarily lost at sea
Plan: World domination! Or something...
vishnu
Tezro, Octane2, 2 x Onyx4

Trade Count: (0)
Posts: 1,247
Threads: 42
Joined: Dec 2017
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Find Reply
11-08-2024, 09:48 PM
#36
RE: hello network, lots of questions
(11-08-2024, 09:48 PM)vishnu Wrote:  Not to repeat myself (but, and as is well known hereabout, (because there's nothing I more prefer than repeat myself)), but I use my Octane2 for exactly two things (neither of which you could/can buy the equivalent of, today, for less than 25,000 US), Pro/ENGINEER and OpenGL. Well, okay, OpenGL is now open source, but really no one uses it for anything that's not commercial, for which they pay stupid MS fast fortunes.

Sorry I must've missed something. What does Microsoft have to do with the above statement? I mean Microsoft still supports OpenGL unlike Apple.  So that's a good thing right? I'm not even sure if Apple officially supports Vulcan but I know there's an effort to get it on there.  DirectX is more holistically designed towards building video games because it covers other aspects as well. I'm certainly not going to knock it. And I'm certainly happy that OpenGL is still OK and functioning just fine on the latest version of Windows.

And to be fair I don't even know what a software license like that cost anymore. I mean are we talking $6000 are we talking $20,000? At what point is the software more expensive than the station?

I mean from my understanding, the point of OpenGL is that chance at cross platform graphics acceleration and standard three-dimensional world manipulation. Companies that aren't building games are definitely smarter to use OpenGL or attempt to Vulcan instead of a platform specific API like METAL or DirectX because they're going have at least 2 to 3 potential platform targets that they can port their software too.  Better investment I would say.  Unless you need super fancy effects that either one of those does out of the box then to shortcut yourself maybe that turns the tides.

I'm not saying Microsoft does everything right but I will give them enormous credit for recognizing one and very important point of computing in the real world. Application binary compatibility. Who else does that? Go on let me know. We've almost come full circle with this platform lock in stuff and now it's gotten worse that a several of open standards have been retired in view of new closed standards being developed for each operating system. Today's OSes have never been more divergent, they may still have vestiges of common ancestry you can run on them. But how much of that can build an actual graphical program? I think Java at least tried with swing to have the right idea of giving some basic controls and windowing instructions to a platform diagnostic source base that allowed for basic utilities and applications to try to make it cross platform without having to use the different languages and different control mechanisms to produce what we would consider to be a very basic and crude graphical interface.

I'm not a fan of Java I'm just saying that was one lofty goal that I at least admired. Nobody else is really tried that and I think as of civilization there's too much wasted energy and wasted man hours redesigning the wheel every single day just to get an interface that looks like everyone else's. Maybe it's considered a ride of passage by some but I think we have more important things to do and we really need to have a publicly funded set of reusable components that companies and individuals can just use to get us past the 101 level of programming and into the 201 level of programming.  

There are tool kits to help you, that's not like I'm blind, but that's a group's hard work without the support of the major manufacturers of these platforms. I realize they have their own vested interest with their own tools that lock you in. But I would say the strength to me would be telling me that you're easy to use, not gonna crash a bunch, and you can run my old software with little to minimal alterations. To me that's a sale to get me on board with your operating system.

And to be fair that's why Microsoft is still king because if I was running a business I'd sure as hell write my business software for Microsoft.  Because I don't know next week, next year, next decade if I'll be even able to run my program on MacOS or Linux even with the source code and just hitting recompile.
weblacky
I play an SGI Doctor, on daytime TV.

Trade Count: (10)
Posts: 1,716
Threads: 88
Joined: Jan 2019
Location: Seattle, WA
Find Reply
11-09-2024, 01:37 AM
#37
RE: hello network, lots of questions
I'd rather not need to drag out an old PC just to be able to clone/backup/format/etc. the sgi scsi hdd's.
Apparently PCI-Express SCSI cards are a bit rare, not many choices.
adaptec 29320LPE is about $200... expensive, seems to be the only adaptec card with pci-e.
LSI Logic LSI20320IE $30... this one is more common and cheap, i know LSI makes good stuff.
question is, will either of these actually work to do what we wanted to do with them???
because if I use an older linux in vmware for the Irix FS support, it may not have the driver for these newer pci-e scsi cards.

windows10 is removing scsi support almost entirely like you said
you can get a non-signed driver to work on that adaptec card so it works in win10 but you have to jump thru a lot of hoops to make it work.
the old driver from win2008 supposedly works on win10 for the LSI card, not sure if it still does or if win10 got patched and removed support.
but using these this way I still won't have the irix fs support, right?

I don't really need irix-fs support unless I want to view/modify the files of the filesystem right?
I should still be able to clone or do other stuff to the disk just fine? what about partitioning/formatting it?
so, do you think I should try getting that LSI card and set it up on vmware?
if the host machine has no driver for it, just the virtual machine does, the hardware will work?

OK so my plan is:
#1 I get the LSI pcie scsi card, use it in win10 or vmware linux to create a cloned image file of my sgi 18GB hdd. that way I can restore it to the hdd if I make a mistake.
#2 I'm going to get a hdd from ian's sgi depot with irix pre-installed, and I'm gonna boot from it, and access my 18GB hdd to modify the root password.
#3 Then I'm gonna swap the boot order in the bios, or just swap them physically, to boot from the 18GB hdd, and see whats in there.
does this sound like it will work?

Octane2 mine!   ...played with in the 90s & long gone: Octane O2 Indigo2 R10000/IMPACT
echo
Octane2

Trade Count: (0)
Posts: 30
Threads: 3
Joined: Oct 2024
Location: usa
Find Reply
11-10-2024, 11:19 AM


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)