[echo]

hi everyone,
i used to use sgi's from about 1999 - 2003 at a school. they had indigo2's, o2's, octanes.
i want to get one soon for nostalgia, probably an octane of some sort. i only know a little bit about them.
i have some questions.

can all the machines run all the same software, or does changes in the CPU or video systems prevent it?
for example, i wanted to try running the oldest versions of alias and wavefront, from before the companies merged.
how far back can you run a software with each machine/configuration? there was sgi software in the 1980s too, right?

from just looking at a machine, is there a way to determine what speed cpu is in it? part# on the cpu/heatsink itself anywhere?
i know sometimes the chassis sticker says a cpu speed, but some don't, and it could have been changed over the years.
i assume the video boards all have a part number on them, on the edge of the board?

is there a way to decipher the meaning of the system barcode? it's a sticker on the rear, below the fan & above pci card-cage.
the barcode looks like this: 08006912632E
this barcode belongs to a model# CMNB015ANG300
i assume the system barcode tells what the configuration of the machine originally was.

there are also barcode stickers indicating when a cpu upgrade was performed, can those codes be understood?

what does the octane front-plane do? what does it look like?
from just looking, how can i check what revision of front-plane it is?

thanks!

[robespierre]

If you haven't found it already, many of your beginner questions are in the SGI hardware FAQ from the 1990s.

The "barcode" beginning 080069 is the Ethernet MAC of the primary Ethernet, which is the System ID. It has no known correlation to the system configuration as it is just a sequential ID.
The CMN... code is a FCC ID. SGI used CMN as its vendor designator and B015 is a hardware platform number (Octane). The rest is a configuration, in this case 300 MHz for the CPU.

Software compatibility is generally good, although very early (pre-1992) programs probably won't run on IRIX 6.5, and there are some other programs that were incompatible with later graphics cards.

[echo]

thanks for showing me that faq, i did a quick read thru of it, didn't find my specific questions in it but it has some interesting things. i find most answers from googling and usually it pops up in the forum here, or another forum, or the neko pages.

i don't have the system yet but i am trying to figure out the setup problems in advance.
i will need to be able to use a KVM, i know it's possible but i'm not sure how to resolve all the issues.
i realize there is problems with sync on green, use of non-sgi keyboard/mouse, minimal usb drivers support on sgi, lots of issues involved.
the whole thing is a mess trying to figure out how to set it up or if it will work at all.
can you tell me how i can set it up or what adapters i should go for?

system1: Octane, videocard: vpro v6. female 13W3 connector. i would like to run it in 1920x1200 @60hz.
system2: PC, videocard: nvidia 3090ti. female displayport 1.4a and female hdmi 2.1 connectors.
kvm: iogear GCS1944, it has displayport 2.1 & USB.

i assume some adapters can make that kvm work, if not i can get a different kvm.

the only 13W3 adapter i know to work is the CablesOnline, 6ft 13W3 Male to SVGA (HD15) Male, with dipswitches.
custom made adapters appear to be no longer available, and SUN adapters are said to be incompatible.
so afaik i will need the cablesOnline cable no matter what.

as for a monitor, i can get a 1920x1200 @60hz monitor that supports sync on green, but is that the best option?
i had one of these already and it broke due to age.

has anyone tried modern displays, maybe a 4k display, running at a lower res? is it a blurry mess or actually looks good?

[weblacky]

system1: Octane, videocard: vpro v6. female 13W3 connector. i would like to run it in 1920x1200 @60hz.

the only 13W3 adapter i know to work is the CablesOnline, 6ft 13W3 Male to SVGA (HD15) Male, with dipswitches.
custom made adapters appear to be no longer available, and SUN adapters are said to be incompatible.
so afaik i will need the cablesOnline cable no matter what.

CablesOnline absolutely still sells these by the hundreds here you go: https://www.ebay.com/itm/270832512031


I own six of these cables. The dip switches depend on the monitor you choose.

Other people can absolutely correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain you can only get to 1080P using maybe a V8  but definitely a V10 or V12 is required.
I thought the maximum resolution for a V6 was 1680x1050?

You need to understand that widescreen resolutions didn't really exist back then. SGI did exist during the transition when HD resolutions for film were established. So the latter stations were built with that in mind. But when the Octane was built there was no such thing as 1080p.

It's just like when you had to fiddle with Xfree86 XConfig for Linux to get graphics to work at all back in the day, issue has to do with it has to do with the dot clock and the specs of the chips of the day.

You need to understand that an Octane is from at like 1996-2002-ish?. What were the available resolutions for PCs in 1998?  Now they did continue to sell the Octanes with upgrades including Octane2 which is where you eventually got the Vpro graphics family!  But I'm pretty sure you're V6 is still too low end for 1080p.  Be aware to that (just like today's top end resolutions) if you go mega-max on these cards, you'll often loose OpenGL performance.

I would honestly recommend not attempting to shove these old stations onto a digital interface unless you have one of the modern DVI DCDs or the last of the SGI that natively used DVI.  Yes you can find special video signal converters and all that but you're probably never going be happy and you're going have so many converters and so many cables and pweor bricks that it's probably going to be a hassle that's not worth it.

If you have to do something in an HD res you may be able to do 1280 x 720 (720p), that's at least achievable and is something you can shove into a modern widescreen monitor.

KVM's used to have SOG heads but most of those are long gone. And if you manage to find them the prices are way high so I don't think you'll find anyone trying that route.

What you can do is get extremely old manual VGA/PS2 style KVM. There are many from the early 2000s made by Netgear and a few others that performed basic EDID emulation but basically just allow the pins right through. As long as you use an SOG monitor on one of these really old KVMs you can hook up an SOG machine at the VGA console port and everything does works-ish. I used to do this briefly with an eight port Netgear KVM from circa 2006.  So you could try to pick up a PS2 VGA KVM that's literally almost 20 years old and that might work but you also might have weird problems when it reconnected and disconnect the monitors during swap.  Several of the old KVM's had peripheral emulation for the keyboard and mouse to prevent hot plugging but didn't necessarily preserve the monitor. So often times it was like plugging and unplugging the monitor cable while you're swapping.


I've never seen a working setup recommended here for KVM's on SGI's, it's just too big of a hassle with too many cooks in the kitchen.  I recommend instead of straining to get your SGI to work on your PC monitor to just get a standard 4:3 aspect LCD monitor made somewhere between 2004 and 2009, a lot of of Dell ultra monitors come to mind but Samsung and NEC used to work as well and just live with that.  Most of the time old 4:3 Lcd monitors between 15 inch to 19 inches supported SOG natively and worked just fine with the tricky.


The only members that usually have success and integrating their SGI into their PC set up are people who have SGI Fuel or SGI Tezro, because those systems were the last to come out and actually do support 1080P as the highest resolution they can output. So they have an easier time integrating because of their later video standards. Each system startinh with octane and below is going to be a new challenge with new video limitations. Remember it's like stepping back in time before Windows XP even existed. So you're talking Windows XP is about when fuel and Tezro we're finishing up their run and we're being sold toward the end of SGI's life.

Before that you're dealing with whatever Windows 2000 could do normally, before that you're dealing with whatever Windows 95/95se could do normally on your pentium I or II. Before that you're dealing with a 486 with windows 3.1, what resolution could that do, 1024 x 768?  I think you hopefully see the issue.  SGI standard output was 1280 x 1024 which was pretty darn big back in the day.

You can run into real hair issues when you start changing the resolutions on these systems, I highly advise you stick with the standard resolution and learn to love it. You can definitely fiddle but sometimes undoing what you're fiddling with can be a nightmare. It's not like windows where there's a simple way to reset the resolution if you mess up and your monitor goes dark from an unsupported setting.  It could be undone but it's a real pain.

Just remember how old these systems actually are. Those of us with large collections have never found a way to just have them all on a giant wall and have one mouse and keyboard rule them all. It just doesn't work out with your time.

If you have to have a huge screen you should just go with an LCD projector that supports SOG from the used recycle pile.

[echo]

i know the cablesonline cable are still available, what i meant was, is there any others which may be better?
i have seen people using the short stubby 13w3 to vga adapters on their sgi in pictures they post online.
on ebay all of these stubby ones are listed as SUN though, which people here have been saying to avoid.
also many people on this forum have said they own a custom adapter made by michaelpastrasthegreat from ebay (he no longer sells them).
i am thinking perhaps the picture quality is better if it transitions into digital signal quicker with the stubby kind?

yes widescreen wasn't popular yet in early 2000s, but it did exist.
the sgi website shows the supported modes, some are for widescreen.
https://web.archive.org/web/200106270401...tions.html

1920x1200 at 75Hz is listed by SGI as an "additional display resolution" for v8/v10/v12.
it is not listed for use on v6 officially though :( and yet 1600x1024 at 83Hz is...
makes me think that maybe sgi just omitted some mode support for marketing reasons rather than technical reasons.

but also, the preterhuman site says this:

Modern LCD monitors that don't work well with the CRT-targeted vfo-microcode supplied by SGI may see improvement if used with a format that includes reduced blanking. Reduced blanking lowers display format overhead needed to allow CRT screen redraws, overhead that doesn't benefit and may adversely affect LCD monitors. Any LCD monitor new enough to take advantage of reduced blanking may benefit when using a custom .vfo/.sdb file.

Reduced blanking can also allow much greater resolution and refresh rates on systems with relatively low pixel clock restrictions, such as IMPACT boards. Using reduced blanking, even low end IMPACT systems have been proven to support resolutions of 1920x1200 at ~60 FPS.

https://wiki.preterhuman.net/Video_Forma...VFO)_Files

due to that site, i thought everyone was using these vfo files to improve performance, and that i could use my preferred resolution.
but if the vfo files are too experimental and dangerous to use i will avoid it.

what about the keyboard & mouse problem?
is using a modern usb mouse and keyboard possible, by way of some adapters?
it's not a standard usb to ps/2 adapter right? i think the sgi mini-din connectors are different?

[weblacky]

The 13w3 -> VGA cables I linked to have great shielding and I've never experienced any ghosting or other problems. I'm not going say the same for the stubby adapters. Then again I think I've only encountered one stubby adapter in my life that was correct SGI and not secretly for SUN.  20+ years ago I learned to go blind to the stubby 13W3 adapters. I physically cannot see them and never consider them, they don't exist.

Before I start on keyboard and mice please be aware that there are only a few SGI systems that have proprietary peripherals. Without telling you all the ones that might I will simply say of the list you provided (indigo2's, o2's, octanes) none of them have proprietary peripherals.  Those three systems are all standard PS/2 models just like you used in PCs they are not different. The only models you have to really watch out for is the original indigo and I think the original Onyx and potentially those families of mini fridge size systems of that vintage were proprietary. The stations you mentioned are all standard and are not proprietary whatsoever for their day. However be aware that PS/2 did undergo several character code revisions and so it's possible to get a late model PS/2 keyboard that doesn't 100% work.  That's very rare though I've only heard of it maybe twice.

We have had some people come to us with mice and keyboard problems though it doesn't commonly occur. We've never found some special USB to PS2 adapter genetically that works with modern USB peripherals off the street. Obviously there were transitional keyboards for USB in the early 2000s that included a special PS/2 adapter just for that keyboard and those I believe tend to work just fine.

I do not own enough SGI peripherals to cover every system I own. It's likely about 30%. A couple years ago I went and bought four new in the box sets of Microsoft PS/2 keyboard and mouse sets from about the year 2003 to 2006 era. I finally they work wonderfully well and so that's what I use. As I use one of these sets all the time. Therefore I don't need to bother with my SGI peripherals and can keep them safe and don't need to keep them out getting dirty or potentially spilling things on them.

According to my records, the model I bought was: Microsoft CA9-00001 (Black Kbd & Mouse sets).

So far I've never come across an SGI that doesn't love them. I've used them on Indy, indig2, fuel, and I think my Tezro but maybe not those are still in repair bays.

Only the last model of SGI's were ever compatible with USB HID mice and keyboards, given the rarity I've never tried them. Though they might work just fine. That would be Fuel and Tezro (with the appropriate USB PCI adapter card on Tezro).  Personally I had no interest in making it harder to do diagnostic work so PS/2 it will always be. 

In terms of the vfo files you mentioned I've never used them one bit, some people have who are trying to squeeze performance out of late model Octane graphics cards and Fuel and Tezro V10/V12 use them to some success - but the problem is that's part of the OS and not part of the firmware. You need to understand that your SGI may not work all the time and you need to be able to talk to it in graphical firmware mode. That firmware mode doesn't give two sh*ts about what you're running Irix OS on it's going to run only on a very narrow setting.  You need to have a monitor that supports 1280 x 1024 at between 70 to 75 Hz. Because that's what it's going to try when you get into what you would consider the "bios". 

You have to understand that I'm someone who's more interested in repairing SGI's and keeping them for their beauty and aesthetic as well as keeping them functioning just as you would have a functional vintage supercar in your garage but you occasionally take out to drive. I don't care personally what the maximum resolution of them is because there's no reason I need that. Their processors are so weak they can't play an HD video to save their life for the most part. Again the late model systems under the right video format (MPEG2 streams) can but you're not going take VLC and get a Blu-ray/DVD rip with an MKV and watch it on your SGI. That's never going to happen!

1280 x 1024 was a very high resolution for the day and even for the Internet it mostly functions just fine, again you won't be surfing the Internet but it's still a point.  I just don't see the benefit of fiddling with the video because when things go wrong it wants it's standard parameters and if you're running something different now you have an extra layer of problems to fight through just a troubleshoot what your actual problem was.

I just run them as they come right out of the box, at the native resolution, at the correct settings, I don't change any boot parameters and I don't fiddle with any drive IDs to make special drives boot, I don't do any of that because if I lose the settings due to a bad RTC battery or something happens on the system I'm now fighting through custom settings to then fix what my problem is. You will experience this as an SGI owner as it's part of learning.

Properly taken care of so far they've proven to be pretty darn long live machines. Realistically as long as you store them in a low humidity environment using common home thermostat settings they will literally just sit there looking great. It's when you relocate them to the garage or a shed that they'll start rusting up and go to crap.

You've got a great opportunity to get these systems. My only advice is that you a treat them with the utmost delicacy as they are more fragile than you can possibly believe. Those plastics are like peanut brittle and they're not easily replaceable if at all. Don't take any chances whatsoever. And secondly take your time and go slow. You'll see lots of stories here on the forums of us helping people where sometimes it takes six months to get their systems working and they had to trade one or two parts to get there. Sometimes that's the way it works. There's normally a way to solve the problem but it does take resources to pay for parts and as you can see parts are shooting through the roof in price so it can be an issue where you have to invest additional funds to get them working. Obviously they don't hold their value to what they originally sold for when they were new, but in the retro market now they have been holding value pretty well for the past 15 or so years. I personally think it's worth getting them working and in good shape and if you decide they need a good home you will have buyers as far as we are concerned.

With the state of emulation and the interest in them by younger generations there is a demand for these stations.  And since I'm the demographic who likes them for the aesthetic I could care less if there was emulation.

Also you'll see my repair stuff start to take off more and as people have maybe been warning you around here those power supplies are not getting any younger. So two things I would recommend you do is don't run the stations without their skins because it can overheat them. And be very serious if you want to keep using those power supplies or if you want to wait to get the power supplies rebuilt after you test the systems and know they seem to basically work then shut them down and wait for rebuilds to come online.

[echo]

i am limiting myself to just one sgi, or i would definitely get an o2 and some others.
i don't have the room, or the time to mess with more than one.

i am sure eventually these plastic cases will get rebuilt with new manufacture plastics.
you can rent a industrial laser scanner for the day to scan everything yourself, should be about $300.
get someone to clean it up in cad, then have it prototyped out.

i'm going to build my sgi into a time machine so i can return to '99.
i'd like to install all the old software we had back then if i can find it anywhere.
we had tons of stuff installed on them, all the professional apps.
maya, alias studio, xsi, blender, shake, photoshop, and more but i forget what it all was.

i would use a sgi emulator if it was not a useless piece of shit. i heard the mame emulation is only 1/10 of the speed of a blue indy system, and nobody is working on improving it anymore either. i didn't even bother to install it and see, because im pretty sure i wouldn't be able to run my old software.

you mention not wanting to change scsi id for special drives, which ones?
i am planning to get a zuluscsi, i suppose it's not fast enough to use as a hdd but i would use it like a cd drive.

network install is only possible from a second sgi irix machine, right?
so i am planning to install irix using the zuluscsi.

i have seen raion mention using a null modem cable to use remote terminal for things, i was not sure what he meant its useful for.
do you know what its for? why use that instead of ethernet?

[weblacky]

All SGI machines have a default SCSI ID they want to boot from, normally ID1.

I'm simply saying I don't mess with that. I put the proper drive in the proper slot with the proper ID setting to be the booting system drive, where the default settings in the firmware work just fine. Some people will start playing games where instead of putting the drive in the correct place with the correct settings they'll simply alter the settings in the firmware to get it to boot. Then when they lose those settings due to a due to a failed real time clock battery or something similar the system will re-initialize default parameters and then nothing boots properly.

If you're taking an octane, you're buying a real drive off eBay. Current available SCSI to SD card virtualization are not fast enough. However the octane uses an SCA 80 connector on an ultra wide SE bus. Those drives are readily available and not expensive. You shouldn't spend $150 for that drive. You should definitely spend $100 or less shipped for a good quality drive. Look around the forums for recommendations but the octane and the O2 are systems that natively take hot-swap style connections which are the most popular because of old data centers. That's not to say you can swap the drives into the SGI, you definitely cannot hot swap drives in an SGI chassis.

Current SD card emulation is perfect for indigo, Indy, potentially indigo2. For faster systems the speed is not yet there as demonstrated by several forum members that like to performance clock these things.

Also the current SD card boards are narrow SCSI and not ultra wide SCSI. While you could convert them it means that you'd have a whole bunch of adapters and cables hung off your octane that would also be slower than needed. For a price less than the cost of that ZuluSCSI board you could have a faster working hard drive off eBay, no problem.

http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgidepot/parts...html#DISKS

Octane can take anything with an SCA 80 connector however some drives run hotter than others. Later model drives run cooler and slower speed drives run cooler. I would refrain from putting a 15 KRPM drive in this machine.

You don't have to follow this above list exhaustively, it's simply a guideline. The vast majority of newer drives with the same connector that are ultra 160, ultra 320 are normally backwards compliant and can turn into an SE Ultra Wide Drive.


I'm still run things old-school and tend to install using CD's but I just haven't had the wherewithal to break out the infrastructure to do network installs lately. But I would recommend if you don't have the equipment and the files on CD then definitely network installers are only other way to go and it's also going to be consistently faster anyway.

There have been several forum members who have created network install virtual machines or applications that allow you to use non-SGI platforms to do network installs. The newest one is called LOVE: http://contrib.irixnet.org/truhobbyist/love/1.0.0/

Lastly your question about the serial terminals. So a lot of UNIX machines do this, but basically when your SGI becomes horribly upset it may not display anything at all on your main monitor. It may make a chiming noise, it may start its fans, but the main monitor will simply remain blank for turn itself off. In those circumstances the only way to talk to your SGI is through a serial terminal. Traditionally this is a properly wired null modem serial cable attached to a laptop or other Windows PC running a terminal emulator like teraterm or if you're using an old Windows XP PC - hyperterm.

There you'll see prom/firmware output as the system is booting along with verbose descriptions and complaints should something go wrong. When SGI's are configured in a certain mode they'll automatically start a terminal for you if they successfully can boot themselves all the way to their own firmware. They'll give you a text prompt for the firmware interface and menu. If you can start your entire OS you'll get an OS terminal instead if you boot all the way through.

The majority of the time you can leave everything hooked up and you should at least see serial output but you may not get the terminal interaction. Sometimes you have to remove your keyboard and mouse from the SGI to give it a hint that you in fact want operate it through a serial terminal instead of through its peripherals. So sometimes a little nudge is necessary to get the terminal interface that's interactive. In all situations though I believe you should be able to get the terminal that's at least descriptive as it's booting. But that might vary.


So the serial cable is useful in examples of extreme upset by the system. This is normally a hardware level problem or complaint and not a software one. Normally you should be able to boot into the graphical prom on the main monitor and use your keyboard and mouse in the proms terminal to reinstall an operating system or change boot parameters and things like that. But if somebody has messed with the monitor resolution in certain prom systems or if you don't have a compatible monitor, or the system board doesn't pass full diagnostics in which case the main graphic interface will never come up, you'll need the serial cable and need to know how to use the terminal in order to discover what might be wrong.


I hope those answered your three questions.

[echo]

thanks, it all makes sense to me, and your thoughts on the best ways of doing things are very helpful.
well ok, so if i plug this thing into my router i obviously won't know the IP to access it.
that means i probably need to use terminal via serial port to find or set up its IP/dns stuff on it first?
but is it just gonna give access to the machine to the first person that plugs in a serial cable?
will i have to clear a cmos battery to reset a bios password on it first or something?
how do i format and partition a new drive? from love? or some kind of boot disk with utils needed for it? i doubt bios/prom has this ability.
just trying to get a general overview of it right now, i dont need all the specifics with the exact commands/params to use.

[weblacky]

thanks, it all makes sense to me, and your thoughts on the best ways of doing things are very helpful.
well ok, so if i plug this thing into my router i obviously won't know the IP to access it.
that means i probably need to use terminal via serial port to find or set up its IP/dns stuff on it first?
but is it just gonna give access to the machine to the first person that plugs in a serial cable?
will i have to clear a cmos battery to reset a bios password on it first or something?
how do i format and partition a new drive? from love? or some kind of boot disk with utils needed for it? i doubt bios/prom has this ability.
just trying to get a general overview of it right now, i dont need all the specifics with the exact commands/params to use.

I've used a private messaging feature to message you a longer document with a lot of the information you're requesting in it.