'Ethical' Laptop?
#1
'Ethical' Laptop?
So my wife and I were having a discussion about ethical consumer items, specifically laptops as her 13" Macbook Pro is busy dying a slow death. She doesn't want a new (or used) Apple product again, both she and I are after something in the future that has more consideration behind it when it comes to parts, manufacturing and assembly.

One thing that I quickly found while looking at all the big brand manufacturers (Apple, Lenovo, Sony, MS, etc. etc.) is that most components are manufactured in, what I can only term as, Chinese slave labour camps. Or, the 'staff' or workers have been taken from Muslim minority or other minority groups in the surrounding areas and 'cleansed' of their wicked ways through propaganda and well, threats and bullying. (Read Uyghurs here)

So considering all that is out there, is there actually a more ethical manufacturer of laptops? And while we have ethics on the list, lets add as open source as possible. (Open Firmware, no blobs, etc)

And yes I know, one country's ethical is not the same as another,  but you get my drift.

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(This post was last modified: 03-10-2020, 08:17 PM by Jacques.)
Jacques
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03-10-2020, 08:11 PM
#2
RE: 'Ethical' Laptop?
System 76 is probably the only one I can think of that comes closest to those expectations?

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03-10-2020, 08:29 PM
#3
RE: 'Ethical' Laptop?
Will go a looking tonight.

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See they ship from the US, not a problem...

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I will most likely try and build a Raptor Blackbird or similar system in the future. But the System 76 smaller laptops look good.

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Jacques
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03-10-2020, 08:40 PM
#4
RE: 'Ethical' Laptop?
I'll be honest, I go about this from the opposite direction. Open systems and responsibly-sourced components are two different ideas.

To me ethical decisions concerning me are on my end (decisions I make within the confinement of reality), I can't do anything about the past (especially when I wasn't involved with the product at that point).

To me, ethics revolve around what I can and should buy, what waste should it produce (and is that acceptable), when would I use it (do I really need it), how long do I expect it to last, how would I dispose of it. For a Windows laptop, there are only two answers for this criteria that come to mind:

Dell Business or Workstation-class laptops or Lenovo Thinkpads.

Why did I just say that?

Because those are the only companies and product families that have many year part life cycles (5 years active support then 5 years parts support with Dell, for 10 years total per business model), will sell you parts directly, and will provide you with technical information to do the work yourself (should you want to).

No other laptop manufacturers do this that I've heard of (please correct me if I'm wrong). Buying right, you can keep a system going 10+ years.

Conversely, if you spend the big bucks on a very tricked out MacBook (I know you said you didn't want one), you can expect most recent models to last 8+ years of supported life (less new batteries). I'm using a MacBook pro retina 2012, upgraded a few bits inside (new SSD, battery, and 802.11AC chipset upgraded), and it's still supported by Apple on their newest OS. Likely I'll be abandoned in 2020 or 2021 (but who knows).

I think the ethical things you do in life is to repair what's broken, buy things you'll use, save things from the land-fill, help others repair their items to save them both money, time, and the pollution of throwing things away. Keep things going (like cars) as long as you responsibly can. Learn how to repair those things and how to spot products that allow you to fix things (versus competing products that don't).

I upgrade Desktops PCs like 9-12 years at a time and laptops about 7-9 years. I'll go longer if I can. Cell Phones should last a minimum of 5 years, I'm using an iPhone 6s (bought on Launch day).

I think consumers are responsible for their buying, pollution, usage, re-use, and disposal of items. Electronics are a new thing, Cars you could keep going 40+ years (unless you get in a wreck), most of the time (that includes ECUs and Sensors). Electronics are just the "guts" inside products (means to an end) for most companies and after the product life expectancy has been reached...they feel it's not their problem. I'd like to know enough to repair stuff that's doable. But special chips, encrypted items, etc...make that not always feasible.

It's not a perfect system and laptop and mobile electronics are the WORST of this issue (designed tight to life expectancy, fast-moving, easily damaged, etc). So the most responsible thing I can think of is: Make it last.

To the point that people around how wonder how you did it. You can buy nicer items, with longer lives, and get something that works, and not be obsessed with having the newest item (if the newest item doesn't actually improve anything you care about). And try to pass on your still-working items to others for a fair deal. The longer a product is in use, the more utility it provided.

The sin here is always buying the newest thing, throwing things away that still have useful utility and life left, and not dealing with what you already own.
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03-11-2020, 01:01 AM
#5
RE: 'Ethical' Laptop?
Well most electronics these days have some components that are made using unethical materials or labor. There's really not a way around it. When I can I like to repurpose old machines that would otherwise be thrown out, since e-waste is horrible for the environment. Even recycling them leads to a lot of waste. It's easy to add a few new components where needed, reinstall an OS, and give/sell them to people who are in need. I sometimes keep those machines for myself and use them for various projects. 

Obviously this isn't an option for everyone and some people need new hardware. In that case it's out of your hands and I think it's fine to just buy what you need. System76 is probably the best option for open firmware out of the box if you want an x86 laptop.

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03-11-2020, 01:36 AM
#6
RE: 'Ethical' Laptop?
Thanks for the replies, I'm already on the 'recycle and reuse' bus. I have a 2012 Macbook Pro that is still going strong, I don't intend to replace it until it breaks for good. My wife's 2011 Macbook Pro is problematic, it seems to run really hot even after a fresh install of 10.13 and having fresh thermal paste and a clean. The heat chows the battery and it just runs like a dog, not sure what's up with it...ram has been swapped as well and no change, fresh SSD as well?!

Anyhow, my 2010 Mac Pro is still going really strong, it's my daily driver and it chugs through everything I throw at it, except some games, but that is to be expected.

I upcycle a huge amount a stuff our office throws out as e-waste (HP z600 and z620 workstations though these are now all out) and put the money made to local dog and cat charities. And I've got a little 14" HP laptop from 2011 I repaired and holding on to as an emergency backup machine.

I'm going to take a look at System 76 laptops when / if I need to buy a new one, though I may look for a second hand Lenovo first and put Debian on for her.

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Jacques
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03-11-2020, 07:31 PM
#7
RE: 'Ethical' Laptop?
I certainly don't agree with how the employees are treated in the Foxconn plants in China, but as shrek stated, most, if not all electronic devices contain unethical materials and/or were produced using unethical labour.

I'm not a laptop person myself, but a few months ago I considered maybe getting one for a staff course that I was attending, and looked at all of the available offerings.

In my opinion, nothing came close to the latest MacBook Pro's when it came to build quality or form factor, especially the smaller one, which could easily be carried around inside a Filofax. (The standard MacBook and MacBook Air are irrelevant in my opinion!)

I am aware that there are many Apple haters here (STOP HATING! Smile ), and I'm okay with that fact, as everyone's entitled to their own opinion. This is just my opinion, for what it's worth! (Zero compromise!)

Apple should move the manufacturing of its MacBook Pro's back to the US, as the Mac Pro is made in the US. (This will result in added cost though!)

For the record, I wouldn't mind it at all if Apple was the only computer manufacturer left in the world, as I love their products! The Trashcan is the best computer I've ever owned, as its given me the least trouble and I will get the new Mac Pro next year. (Provided the global economy doesn't crash, the world doesn't end or I don't die before then!)
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2020, 08:24 PM by Irinikus.)
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03-11-2020, 07:49 PM
#8
RE: 'Ethical' Laptop?
(03-11-2020, 07:49 PM)Irinikus Wrote:  In my opinion, nothing came close to the latest MacBook Pro's when it came to build quality or form factor, especially the smaller one, which could easily be carried around inside a Filofax. (The standard MacBook and MacBook Air are irrelevant in my opinion!)

Is the verdict out on the keyboard in the latest MacBook Pro's already? Because until then you can pry my 2015 MBP from my cold dead fingers Wink
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03-11-2020, 09:38 PM
#9
RE: 'Ethical' Laptop?
I don’t think I will be buying a laptop any time soon, as I really have no need for one.

I hate devices that creek when I pick them up, due to their cheap build! I love the pure machined metal build of Apple products, and I also love their software!

Funny enough, when it comes to keyboards, I actually like the limited travel of the keys found on Apple keyboards. Again this is only my opinion! Smile
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03-12-2020, 03:24 AM
#10
RE: 'Ethical' Laptop?
Last time I was in Japan, last May, I was astounded to start seeing many laptops and systems advertised as being "Made in Japan". It's a growing trend. I highly recommend you look for items "Made in USA" or "Made in Japan", "Made in Canada" or "Made in the EU", or "UK". As the recent crisis has shown, cheapest is not always best, and you may be sending your money offshore to hostile entities with little legal or ethical care for you or your country! They may even steal trade secrets, copy designs, make things poorly, treat their workers poorly all in the name of flooding our markets with cheap poor-quality throw-away garbage to break down the very fabric of our culture as a nation-state level objective. Buy from friendly, allied and reputable places of manufacture that you can count on! You definitely get what you pay for!

Just look at this new ad from (Formerly Sony's, now independent) the VAIO company:
https://us.vaio.com/pages/vaio-made-in-japan

In case the link dies, here is a summary of what they are espousing:
- Made in Japan in Nagano prefecture
- Made by local Japanese workers with pride and craftsmanship
- "can boast of in-house design, manufacturing, and support teams. Each team member at the headquarters in Azumino City, Nagano Prefecture endeavors to create cutting edge technology. Each team member believes that a bold, yet deft, organic approach to manufacturing creates added value. This is the level of commitment to Japanese technology and aesthetics that is a hallmark of VAIO’s craftsmanship."
- Our workers innovate to create new ideas that make it into the final design
- "We are proud to not be trendy." "Rather than make unremarkable, micro-bezel, thin laptops like everyone else, we sought balance by locating our wireless antenna where it matters." (I love this dig at Apple!)
- Long term support: "VAIO provides support for legacy models of its global devices as an example of being in service to the Japanese business model and while still fulfilling our mission as a Japanese manufacture"

This is not a new trend, but I saw this from many other brands like Fujitsu Lifebooks, NEC devices, etc. right there on the store shelves. Yes, prices were much higher than the made in China alternatives, which was practically everything else. But you get what you pay for, and your money goes somewhere that you can trust.

For years we have been paying lip service to the idea that we should bring manufacturing back home. I can tell you for a certainty that Japan has greatly suffered from a loss of manufacturing at home as well as the USA. This money goes directly to countries that are our friends and allies, and to businesses that are eager to show they are responsible.

Yeah, I know that Sony has a troubled past. But VAIO is now a seperate corp, and I can tell you that they are desperate to win back consumers again by showing they mean it. For years Canada has suffered as the USA has stopped buying from our manufacturers. We have lost countless contracts in the automotive sector, electronics, tooling and machinery, etc. It's really hurtful. Buy from people like us, and not your enemies! Remember when companies like Blackberry (RIM), Nortel Networks or Alias|Wavefront were based out of Canada and making some of the world's best tech? And the president even used "crackberries" on the daily? And Nortel was making the very best of network tech that was not a security risk or threat because we are a trusted 5 eyes member country? Yeah, they were designed at "home" too, and that could happen again with the right consumer support.

*rant mode off*

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(This post was last modified: 05-20-2020, 03:25 PM by ghost180sx.)
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