[lunatic]

I have been reading through the posts here and I am somewhat surprised about some of the reactions.
As bad as COVID19 is, this is not the end of the world. What you should recognize is that it is the overall system that responds to a pandemic, not the individual. The US are likely to take the global lead in COVID19 cases soon and I feel really sorry for you. Your system (government, health care, whatever...) basically failed to respond appropriately and that is most unfortunate in times when you need the system the most. The positive perspective is that this is not the end of the world. You can choose to change this. It makes us all very much aware how interconnected we are.
Me, I am personally happy with paying for universal health care, because in a pandemic it is good if all people get proper treatment. I also like to pay for public education even though I don't have a kid in school, because I like to live in a country with as few stupid people as possible. But I certainly understand that COVID19 touches the whole freedom/personal responsibility debate you have.
But please, have a little compassion for your fellow citizens. In 2001 I watched the WTC towers collapse on live TV and the reaction and compassion for NYC was heartwarming. Now NYC is one of the most affected cities and look at how NYC is treated now... it is really sad just watching it from the outside.

[Raion]

I have been reading through the posts here and I am somewhat surprised about some of the reactions.
As bad as COVID19 is, this is not the end of the world. What you should recognize is that it is the overall system that responds to a pandemic, not the individual. The US are likely to take the global lead in COVID19 cases soon and I feel really sorry for you. Your system (government, health care, whatever...) basically failed to respond appropriately and that is most unfortunate in times when you need the system the most. The positive perspective is that this is not the end of the world. You can choose to change this. It makes us all very much aware how interconnected we are.

The US is a country where everyone thinks for themselves. I say don't feel sorry for us. This is a bed that has been made by years of corruption and inefficiencies in our system. That all being said, cases in the US aren't gonna end up like Italy likely. We have a far different culture.

Me, I am personally happy with paying for universal health care, because in a pandemic it is good if all people get proper treatment. I also like to pay for public education even though I don't have a kid in school, because I like to live in a country with as few stupid people as possible. But I certainly understand that COVID19 touches the whole freedom/personal responsibility debate you have.

Everyone in the US pays for public education, but the quality of the education is bad due to teachers unions dominating the landscape. They bully the good teachers, wearing them down, and they let bad, tenured teachers stay in regular positions. I'm not being haughty when I say as a high schooler 10 years ago I was smarter than 4/5 of my teachers.

Without drifting this too much into pure politics, nothing positive would come of adopting a Canadian, UK or French-style universal healthcare system, and Medicare for all would be a disaster as well. Our government's public service sectors are always incredibly bureaucratic and bloated, and I don't think that a change like that would result in a single net positive. The ethics of making waiting lists for surgeries, dismantling an industry that provides millions of well-paying jobs, and not even giving any way to punish people who already bilk the system, is a terrifying and unethical decision.

But please, have a little compassion for your fellow citizens. In 2001 I watched the WTC towers collapse on live TV and the reaction and compassion for NYC was heartwarming. Now NYC is one of the most affected cities and look at how NYC is treated now... it is really sad just watching it from the outside.

The issue is, most US citizens in my position have been dehumanized and daemonized by the media, the establishment, etc. because we fall into "wrongthink". The thought police is alive and well here and just waiting to get the power to jail people for saying even minorly offensive stuff, to say nothing of the comedians, pundits etc. It's kind of hard for me to feel any compassion for New Yorkers or Los Anglians who have spent the better part of a decade daemonizing everything I believe in. That's the dilemma you face. These people have no compassion or understanding for you or your struggles, so you naturally want nothing to do with them.

[jan-jaap]

The US is a country where everyone thinks for themselves. I say don't feel sorry for us. This is a bed that has been made by years of corruption and inefficiencies in our system. That all being said, cases in the US aren't gonna end up like Italy likely. We have a far different culture.

If anything it's going to be worse than Italy. The US has been downplaying this thing and dragging it's feet, fearing the economical consequences. Now you're looking at a doubling number of cases every three days in New York, far worse than Italy ever saw. You're simply or two weeks behind on the curve, but you're not immune. This virus doesn't care if you're a commie, a pasta eater or a redneck. It can only by stopped by removing infected people from the population early (test often -- the South Korean approach) or failing that, by simply limiting everybody's contacts (lockdown). This virus won't go away if you call it fake news.

It's not a coincidence that countries which suffered SARS and MERS have better infrastructure in place to deal with the new corona virus. Maybe us Europeans thought (hoped?) this one would stay in the East like SARS and were taken by surprise. The Italians simply had the bad luck to be the first to be hit in Europe so they have some excuse for their slow initial reaction. They made up for it though with a very strict lockdown, but unfortunately they are paying the price. Switzerland, bordering on the area in Italy worst hit is having real issues dealing as well, and I wouldn't call them incompetent.

It's kind of hard for me to feel any compassion for New Yorkers or Los Anglians who have spent the better part of a decade daemonizing everything I believe in. That's the dilemma you face. These people have no compassion or understanding for you or your struggles, so you naturally want nothing to do with them.

That is beyond sad. RIP the United States of America.

[lunatic]

If anything it's going to be worse than Italy. The US has been downplaying this thing and dragging it's feet, fearing the economical consequences. Now you're looking at a doubling number of cases every three days in New York, far worse than Italy ever saw. You're simply or two weeks behind on the curve, but you're not immune. This virus doesn't care if you're a commie, a pasta eater or a redneck. It can only by stopped by removing infected people from the population early (test often -- the South Korean approach) or failing that, by simply limiting everybody's contacts (lockdown). This virus won't go away if you call it fake news.

depends on how you construe "worse". Italy currently claims a mortality rate of about 10%. Contrast this with say Germany (0.5%). Some experts argue that Italy's mortality rate might be inflated, because there is need to attribute death to COVID19... In any way, the dead are real, whatever the cause of death. Also notice that estimates for mortality have actually gone up since the start of the pandemic, not simply based on numbers from Italy, but from also from Iran, France, and even the Netherlands (all well around/above 5%). To get a proper estimate, you should probably use the median rate across the world, but let's just guess here and assume a very low estimate of 2%. Current case number in the US is like 86000 - rising very fast... You do the math... Indeed, the total death toll in the US might be lower than in Italy, but (1) based on sheer case numbers, fatalities will be high enough and (2) honestly, it's too soon to say. Infections in Italy are slowing down for many days now, but numbers keep rising fast in the US.
As you said, the exponential function doesn't care who you voted for. NYC or LA are just incubators.

It's not a coincidence that countries which suffered SARS and MERS have better infrastructure in place to deal with the new corona virus. Maybe us Europeans thought (hoped?) this one would stay in the East like SARS and were taken by surprise. The Italians simply had the bad luck to be the first to be hit in Europe so they have some excuse for their slow initial reaction. They made up for it though with a very strict lockdown, but unfortunately they are paying the price. Switzerland, bordering on the area in Italy worst hit is having real issues dealing as well, and I wouldn't call them incompetent.

The Swiss have certainly been overconfident in their response to COVID19, but I fully agree with your argument: Switzerland is not an example for a poor country with bad living conditions. If Switzerland can be affected to such an extent, everybody can. But then again, a similar argument could be made for the Netherlands: Not a 3. world country either.

That is beyond sad. RIP the United States of America.

I never really believed that, because American history is full of conflict. But yeah, Trump ain't no Lincoln... I guess we have to take care of ourselves here in old Europe... I was actually hoping for more cooperation, but now countries are fighting over strategies and even equipment like face masks. Boris Johnson just tested positive for COVID19. Karma is a bitch... The Chinese and Russians have sent aid to Italy. Sure, that is an obvious PR move on some part, but the gesture is appreciated... The obvious question raised is: Shouldn't the democratic countries get their shit together and solve this? Anybody out there willing to be the leader of the free world? It can't be the Germans, can it...

[Raion]

When I'm saying it won't be "worse" I mean purely in terms of mortality rate. Even with the healthcare system like it is, we have different demographics and culture and that will probably confine the disease to key demographics for while. The majority of deaths under 50 in the US are diabetics, and we have a lot of those, including undiagnosed. Already people are distancing themselves quite a lot when I'm in public, and masks are surprisingly common both among the sick and healthy.

None of the Europeans here should be overly surprised at how divided the US is. It's been like this for a long time, and thus that's why you have people bragging about stealing from grocery stores and blaming capitalism, like morons, and then on the other side you have toilet paper hoarders and gun panic buyers.

"Leadership" in Europe in these times won't go over well with the US. People hate nothing more than when politically illiterate Europeans try to, based on preconceived notions of California and New York state, prescribe what to do with the US. I tell people that they should consider the US states each their own separate country, because in reality that's what it is. Most people distrust the feds, and are more loyal to their states.

My suggestion is to not criticise the US response to the pandemic because other people won't be so nice online and will probably bite back when you say something out of touch with the common person.

Edit: This graphic is why I'm not concerned about most people:

   

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronaviru...ographics/

You have to be over the age of 50 to have any sort of non-rounding error chance of dying from COVID-19. That's a lot of people, for sure, but it's not a majority.

[mgtremaine]

So much self assurance and so much anger. This thread should not be.

-Mike

[Raion]

If you're referring to my conduct, I feel I've been as civil as I possibly can with issues that tread so closely towards political partisanship. This touches every corner of the globe and nobody is left unaffected. Everybody likes to tell everybody how to best handle an issue and ultimately the result is that you have incoherent yelling from people who aren't on the ground who want to make decisions on your behalf.

I'm hesitant to delete posts or close the thread because it would be an act of censorship that doesn't really have a place here. Everyone's being civil for the most part, and not a single post in the thread has crossed the line of incivility.

If you are expressly referring to what I said you shouldn't be shy about talking to me about it. If you don't want it to be public that's fine we can talk about it over private message. I'm not out to hurt anybody's feelings or anything, but I simply feel that my country is responding with fear-mongering and over reactions that have crossed the line from being inconvenient into being dangerous. It's important to take into account how all of this is affecting people who don't work in "essential" businesses like myself. How the state basically has told me what hours I can operate at and for how many days of the week and all of the red tape that I have to do in order to stay open. At the end of the day we had no choice but close.

[lunatic]

If you're referring to my conduct, I feel I've been as civil as I possibly can with issues that tread so closely towards political partisanship. This touches every corner of the globe and nobody is left unaffected. Everybody likes to tell everybody how to best handle an issue and ultimately the result is that you have incoherent yelling from people who aren't on the ground who want to make decisions on your behalf.

I'm hesitant to delete posts or close the thread because it would be an act of censorship that doesn't really have a place here. Everyone's being civil for the most part, and not a single post in the thread has crossed the line of incivility.

If you are expressly referring to what I said you shouldn't be shy about talking to me about it. If you don't want it to be public that's fine we can talk about it over private message. I'm not out to hurt anybody's feelings or anything, but I simply feel that my country is responding with fear-mongering and over reactions that have crossed the line from being inconvenient into being dangerous. It's important to take into account how all of this is affecting people who don't work in "essential" businesses like myself. How the state basically has told me what hours I can operate at and for how many days of the week and all of the red tape that I have to do in order to stay open. At the end of the day we had no choice but close.

Well, calling me politically illiterate just because you disagree with me wasn't very nice and not quite a Gettysburg address.
On my part, if you like your disaster response the way you have it, that's fine with me. As I said, I recognize that COVID19 touches some deeper political themes in the US.
There is just one thing that I will still stand up for: Facts. I might have the wrong kind of PhD - hence being politically illiterate - but I know a thing or two about health care and statistics. Given the immense numbers, a mortality rate of 0.2% in younger age groups is not negligible. More importantly, a small proportion, yet still large number of persons need intensive care. These people are not peacefully dying at home in their sleep. They are overloading the ERs and intensive care facilities. Medical associations have already published guidelines for medical professionals how to distribute resources and how to make decisions which people one should try to save and which people one should let die. Sure, most patients will be saved, but there's a price for that as well.
The Chinese have enacted extreme measures in order to prevent a spread of the virus into other large cities. They basically wanted to prevent what is now happening in NYC for example. In this regard, the US will be an interesting example of what might have happened in China. You're now in the control group, so to speak...
If you think that this is just the price of freedom and economic prosperity: Alright then. Just go into this with both eyes open.

That said, I am out of this thread. This is getting way too ugly for me and I feel like this is not my fight.

[Raion]

Let me clarify that I wasn't specifically calling you politically illiterate, not anyone else in the thread. I simply find when I'm talking with the people from Europe that there is a grave misunderstanding of how the US actually functions. I try to avoid dictating public policy for countries that I'm not familiar with for this very reason especially if the only thing I read about them is mainstream media.

Most European people I've talked to who talk about the United States don't have anything positive to say about our country and blindly make recommendations that would make sense in Europe but not necessarily in the context of how things in the US work. That's all I was trying to get across; I am sorry that I wasn't clear and made you take it personally, that certainly was not the intention of my post.

The United States is even more diverse than Europe and I frankly have no idea what's going on in most of the major US cities. Being a rural part of the country though our hospital has two cases, both on ventilation, and has for over a week. No massive alarm, and the restrictions on businesses and other activities strike most of my fellow residents in this part of the country as out of touch overreactions. We were already taking proper precautions for weeks and now we feel like we're being unfairly punished for what people in the more heavily populated parts of the state are doing. I live in a county that has less than 10,000 people and a low population density.

Furthermore the nearby cities are not heavily affected other than the capital city, the military base cities and Northern Virginia, the latter of which is more DC than Virginia in terms of culture and mindedness.

The frustrations are because as a general rule people who don't live in the US underestimate the geography, densities and demographics of the nation, and there's vast misunderstandings of just how close together cities are. At least in the eastern part of the United States for example most of the cities are hours apart from each other unless you live in the northeastern corridor where New York City Newark, Philadelphia etc. Are all butted up against each other. The driving time from Richmond, Virginia, to Fairfax Virginia for example is often upwards of three or four hours. That's comparable to driving from Hamburg Germany to Berlin. Driving from my part of Virginia to New York City is comprable to driving from Paris to Nice.

Similarly, everything from how you talk to your cuisine, culture and political interest is going to vary between the different parts of the United States you come from and our issues are vastly different.

So let me reiterate I was not calling anybody in this thread politically illiterate, I was speaking as a general frustration towards a lot of people from Europe I have talked to who don't quite understand the magnitude of the United States or specifically what is best for us. until you visit our country and actually stay somewhere that isn't New York City or Chicago for an extended period of time, it's kind of hard to understand the reality of living in the United States that isn't something that's presented in the guardian or vice magazine. and that's one of the biggest frustrations that as somebody who was born in the United States I have to deal with when it comes to people from all over the world.

[weblacky]

Raion is actually pretty spot on with the US, we are very loyal to our home states, mostly have negative opinions of other states. Rarely leave our state unless we have to or there is change and we must adapt. I love my state (as it is now) with no current taxes for wealth, inheritance, death, precious bullion, or income. States have wildly different living standards, taxes and cost of living (you'd be shocked). High cost of living states tend to get thumbed (there are a few exceptions). That's mostly the east coast. Mid-westerners and westerners (like me) have a bad impression of the east coast (also California, even though it's on the west coast.)

I'm currently living in a 2-week city-wide mandatory self-isolation (if found outside without a good excuse you can be charged with a misdemeanor for defying the order!) in ground zero (first infected area reported in the US). But good for me, I work with an "essential" business so if I'm driving I can claim I'm operating for them. Though I respect the order generally and never normally leave my home without a reason anyway.

I wrote a huge document to post on this thread yesterday (so much to say). But that's all too much. Let me boil it down,

1. Since the US is not a socialized system, we think social programs are supposed to be medicine, to help you get better, then you're back on your feet and out of the program, not an addiction (life-long lifeline). America was formed with self-sustaining family farms. Even though most farms are gone, that message rings very true (you ask for help when you really need it, not when it's convenient. You should stand on your own and benefit from you own labor).

We have a terrible track record of life-long social programs and the taxation to pay for them kills the middle-class. We don't want more taxes because our cost of living (in my area) is extremely high, most people spend at least 75% or more of their paycheck on rent in my half of the state. The more you tax, the more new people need help and join the social programs (it's a bad cycle). I know in Europe everyone is on socialized programs because everyone pays in, which means you don't have a choice (no money pay for it yourself). Most middle-class and higher US citizens view social programs and those that use them them with pity. Because the truth if often there is no incentive to get off the programs, improve yourself, your situation, or change in any way. It’s basically considered free money by those that use it (not a helping hand) and often runs in families (once your parents are on it, you're likely to apply and be on it when you get old enough, and repeat the cycle).

That’s what we see when our politicians talk about social programs. Handing out free money to people how may or may not really need it or deserve it. I'm personally for helping those truly in need, who are humbled by their situation and want to work to get out of it. I also think we should heavily subsidize expensive medical procedures (e.g. major surgeries, $50,000 USD and above). That's what I think insurance should be only used for - catastrophic medical needs (not a doctor's check-up or sprained ankle).


2. In regards to the pandemic, did anyone here honestly think the government can do a darn thing about the spread? If the government had the power to control that much of the population and that fast…we would have seen it used in other instances before like natural disasters, riots, and such. The government has the rule of law to hide behind and tax-payer money. They don’t have magic wands or unlimited funds. This situation is really no different than people living 100+ years ago…it’s called the real world! It’s based on competition, health, death, winning, and betting. Vaccines take years to make, some people are more affected then others by different illnesses (owning to variations in people). Supplies are creates on demand, there aren't 500,000 ventilators in a warehouse somewhere waiting to be used, nor 50 million latex gloves just stacked up. Any government that put those things in place beforehand would have been ousted for wasting public money with that kind of stock-piling on a normal day in the past. We need roads repaired, and investment in other areas, not warehouses full of worst-cast scenario, doomsday, materials.

I don’t know what magic shield people have come to believe they now have, but the human body hasn’t changed, we are just as fragile and helpless when severally injured as we always were. Luck, genetics, diet, support systems (family, village, town, etc), and general overall health normally determined how long you naturally lived.

Sometimes it’s luck (good or bad) but life is generally the sum of your decisions from your starting point. A pandemic just shows, you have a public and personal responsibility to prevent infecting other people while trying to keep yourself safe (as much as possible). It’s a numbers game for sure, but you can increase your odds through your decision-making. How is this any different from older generations with TB, Polo, Influenza, Malaria, Cholera, etc? Maybe we've gone soft and had too many curable diseases, but real danger is out there, real risk, real consequences. Life isn't fair, everyone isn't equal. We are all different with different starting points and abilities (talents) in life. You play the hand you're dealt as best you can, no one can ask more than that of you.

Try to make good choices in life, think with your head, instead of other body parts. Be grateful and proud of your successes, learn from your mistakes, don’t give up, don’t stand still. It is, and always was, your responsibility to take care of yourself and your affairs, not the governments.