Advice for a new Indy User
#31
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
tech-pubs.net is an excellent resource, as is TechPubs.jurassic.nl

Really knowing any Unix-like system will prepare you for understanding IRIX.

I'm the system admin of this site. Private security technician, licensed locksmith, hack of a c developer and vintage computer enthusiast. 

https://contrib.irixnet.org/raion/ -- contributions and pieces that I'm working on currently. 

https://codeberg.org/SolusRaion -- Code repos I control

Technical problems should be sent my way.
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07-22-2025, 01:56 AM
#32
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
That's a good question. So what you need to understand is that UNIX was initially a brand name from AT&T Bell labs for their operating system. It was written in the C programming language and was actually a big reason behind the C programming language being developed alongside. So the two have an incredibly close relationship. Every UNIX that has come afterward, that actually carries the brand name, has to be derived from some the original source through licensing. It isn't a carbon copy it just has source components in common that are licensed from the original trademark. So when you look at HP-UX, Irix, Tru64, SUN Solaris (SunOS), IBM AIX, etc... They share lineage. That lineage is not only sharing source in common but also sharing the POSIX API standard in common.

Linux is a UNIX clone and it carries no original unique source code, however it's still subscribes to the UNIX tenants of file system layout, POSIX compatibility, and a lot of the tools and shells written for UNIX were open sourced and ported to Linux a very long time ago.

So a lot of people cut their teeth on Linux because it's more user-friendly and has a bunch of very cool shortcuts and it's very easy to install. But every UNIX has its own quirks and its own time in history.

Irix is basically from the mid 80s all the way to 2003 or so. So various standards were added to it as well as the fact that SGI Irix was the pioneering platform for OpenGL... That's right the same standard that 3D video games used to commonly be written in until DirectX, macOS Metal, and Vulcan came along with other game engines like unity and unreal.

So every one of them is going to have their quirks, every one of them is going to have different ways of addressing the hard drives but they're all going to be in the /dev folder. All of them may have different programs but almost all the global configurations will be in the /etc folder. Logs and printer queues are commonly in the /var folder.

Read more about that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem...y_Standard

UNIX has a multitude of shells, a shell is just what runs inside a terminal and response to your commands. In windows you're used to command.com and later the powershell terminal and the commands that they support. But UNIX has many more shells just from many more creators. Each shell has slightly different features and commands, though the base commands for listing directories and manipulating files and directories tend to be exactly the same because they're programs under UNIX and not shell features. Linux commonly uses the bash shell, Macos recently switch to the Z-Shell zsh, there's also a C Shell (whose scripting resembles the C programming language), etc..

UNIX being so old and having so many cousins and nephews means that there's many many tools and that's really where the entire open source movement came from. UNIX by its nature tries to be source compatible. That is to say not including the graphic system that a UNIX station might have, most people talk about the terminal when they talk about UNIX programs. The POSIX API allowed people to port from one UNIX version to the other vendor's UNIX when they bought a new computer with a different commercial version from a different vendor and it didn't take very long to make minor changes to get your software to run.

Windows is about binary compatibility, the fact that you can take an older exe binary from an older version of windows and run it on a newer version of windows without recompilation is a feature. UNIX and macOS as similar don't make that promise at all. Unless you buy the exact software third-party for your exact version of UNIX don't expect it to run. The idea was the developers would be able to port their source code very easily to take advantage of the various system services through the POSIX API to another UNIX easily. So for businesses this meant that they could buy new machines every so often with a different version of UNIX and port their business software that they made themselves as long as they have the source code and used the best practices by trying to use the core services provide provided by the UNIX POSIX API.

Now you have to understand this is all terminal stuff, command prompt in Windows parlance.

There have been several attempts to make a standard graphical environment for UNIX operating systems. CDE was the biggest attempt which was supported by several vendors including SGI. But SGI chose a very common window kit called MOTIF that is both a rich library with a set of controls and a look and feel for the applications. Linux actually has free open source versions of a MOTIF compatible library as well, it's easily recognizable because it has its own very specific look & feel.

From your standpoint it will look incredibly dated, like you're staring at something from the 1980s and early 90s. But that's exactly what you are doing. Even the most basic Linux window managers look incredibly primitive. Some look like macOS and do a lot of 3-D eye candy. Windows has its own looking feel as well.

What you need to understand is that graphical interfaces came along after the UNIX operating systems were in existence. So they started to bolt that on and while they do have some very interesting standards the actual end result of look & feel, and API, was never standardized. The UNIX/Linux windowing system mechanism, called X windows, was fairly well standardized but not for 3-D acceleration. For that you were expected to use an OpenGL frame/window.

So UNIX and graphical environments tend to be different animals. The graphics are normally just to get the person to launch whatever the application is they need to run. There's not a lot of provided graphical application applications as compared to say macOS.

Back when the Internet started Solaris, now owned by Oracle, was "the" operating system to run your web servers on. So for a while that was with the Internet pretty much ran on. Other companies like SGI also tried to get into the mix and they have their own web technologies of the day but that never really went anywhere. But you'll see vestiges of all of it while using Linux. And yes there were Apache Web Server distributions for all major UNIX OSes in recent history.

The point of a lot of UNIX systems is heavy on the processing and often light on the graphical interaction. It's not meant to be be a gaming platform or be a bunch of multimedia eye candy, normally. The systems were terminal based and they are meant to crunch numbers at various speeds given how awesome and huge/powerful your system was. Whether you were dealing with an IBM AIX mainframe or you were dealing with a Motorola UNIX station at home you'd understand the common commands and file system structure you'd also be familiar with general compilation of software as well as the user tools that are at least provided with every UNIX as a bare minimum.

So UNIX is very terminal-based because that's its lineage. Yes there are some applications graphically to help you do some common tasks but realistically most of what these systems do is backend systems like databases and file storage and processing special workflow for business application applications as well as scientific applications given the malleability of the system.

it's also important to understand that the majority of UNIX usage tends to be dedicated for one specific purpose. Certainly it's a general computing and general purpose operating system standard. But what I mean is normally companies or individuals purchase UNIX stations for a specific application almost like an appliance. That might be to be a web server, or that might be as a 3-D modeler, or that might be as a database machine, or that might be as a computer to run a third-party company product for a special machine or workflow.

Silicon Graphics Inc was one of the UNIX vendors that took graphics very seriously. But that didn't translate into a lush desktop experience. What it translates into is being in the forefront of 2-D and 3-D graphics acceleration for the specific purpose of rendering whether that is scientific data or whether that's Hollywood movies.

There was a time when silicon graphics stations were used at the other end of MRI machines in hospitals to reassemble your medical scans because they were better at doing it then personal computers of the time! Many famous Hollywood movies like Terminator 2 and Jurassic Park were made on Silicon Graphics hardware using famous 3D software products of the time!

There was nearly a 10 year span of history where silicon graphic stations were incredibly expensive and were the fastest 3D graphics you could get in the industry period it was like a Ferrari or a Lamborghini of the computer world, when it came to graphics.

Please note that the SGI Indy was meant as a cheap/affordable station to compete in different sectors so it's not known for its 3D acceleration. It is known for its basic PAL/NTSC video I/O and multimedia input output capability.

SGI did have system offerings with RAID Arrays and huge cluster systems and was the temporary owner of Cray supercomputers, which integrated a lot into those avenues.

Eventually with the formation of Nvidia, which was full of ex-SGI engineers that had become disillusioned with SGI management, they designed video cards for cheaper Intel PCs that eventually overtook SGI graphic dominance by the early 2000s.

So what you need to understand is that you're learning a flavor of UNIX, called Irix that was a derivation of the original AT&T Bell labs UNIX but heavily altered and customized for SGI's need. it shares all the UNIX commonalities but it has its own quirks that no other UNIX will have.

So the long answer to your question is most of us have either industry experience or we got into a different UNIX or Linux OS and later found out about SGI stations, because the average person couldn't afford one, and so you learn about this operating systems quirks based on common knowledge of how UNIX itself works.

Here's some stuff I found briefly that might be of interest to get started.

https://users.cs.duke.edu/~alvy/courses/unixtut/
https://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~kev...l/toc.html
https://grimoire.carcano.ch/blog/posix-c...lesystems/

A lot of my personal specialty is in UNIX as that's what I pretty much started using, by using Linux and Irix, around 1996, after I got bored with Windows 95 and Windows NT 4.0, I was just starting high school then.

So I got into UNIX by way of Linux. I don't use Linux professionally anymore I'm mainly a macOS user and developing some software on Windows. But all have common basic services and there's a lot that translates between all three operating systems - that's files and drives and networking, just not graphical user interfaces.

So the way most people cut their teeth on UNIX is basically playing around with Linux. The community is many hundreds of times larger than ours and a lot of things are a lot easier to do and there's a lot of nifty time saving things that are great for beginners on Linux.

Linux has gotten off some of the UNIX beaten path with the introduction of a new startup system mechanism that is very different (systemd) from the traditional UNIX services start up system (SystemV init) but other than that I'd say the skills are directly transferable.

Other than the bare minimum configuration of each UNIX or UNIX clone will be very different. For example the command to see what's going on on your network cards and interfaces is mostly the same on common UNIX stations but the commands and files to configure those properties are radically different even if they all may be in the /etc directory. So while there may be commands to check on them and alter them temporarily that are common on all of them, the configuration steps to change those permanently on those systems are very different and that's part of the variants that you'll see in UNIX.

SGI intended their users to use the station as an appliance. That's why a lot of these aspects are not user-friendly. You were supposed to spend $20,000 or $30,000 on an SGI Octane or something like that, then spend another $10,000 or so dollars on Alias 3D Maya or Lightwave or something, then you had someone sit in front of the station that knew that application really well and just use it all day. Yes there was a Netscape browser and yes there was an email client and that was about it. You can almost consider it a single use station because it was bought for one very specific use, to run that specific 3-D program or something of that nature.

The SGi Indy was an economy/cheaper machine built for the purpose of penetrating the market for office environments and web usage. So don't expect it to be a 3-D powerhouse, it wasn't advertised as that to begin with. But it was also 1/4 or less of the cost of a high-powered SGI 3D workstation of the day.

So that's the environment you're sort of asking about. On the one hand you have yourself a machine that has a very specific flavor of UNIX, on the other hand UNIX in general constitutes many vendors and many different variations all of which have both similarities as well as stark differences. Learning about the similarities is probably the strong point of it but I wouldn't call Irix particularly user-friendly, not compared to the Linux terminal.

If you're serious about learning all that I would say get a virtual machine for a modern Linux distribution running on your main desktop/laptop computer. Get comfortable with that then start using that to SSH/Telnet into Irix on your Indy, and start trying to do similar things such as set up compilers, potentially compile sample programs, load pre-compiled free war from our various archives, that kind of thing.

Please note that you're talking about a system that's from basically 1993, it has a web browser but it can't surf what you consider to be the modern web. It'll not only be incredibly slow but it will break on pretty much every page except maybe the Google homepage. It doesn't understand modern encryption, it doesn't understand modern scripting, it doesn't understand modern HTML. Getting a more modern browser like Firefox has been pushed before and there is a slightly more up-to-date Firefox available but it runs or perhaps doesn't really run acceptably well on an Indy and even so it's still so old that the vast majority of websites will be broken when using it.

This is my hint in the saying you can do all the networking you want, you can do all the file sharing via NFS and old SMB shares and all that stuff you want but don't for a moment mistake the Indy as a portal to the Internet. That ship sailed a long time ago. So unfortunately without the Internet you may find it rather boring.

But depending on what aspect of computing you're interested in you may find something about it that you can learn from or enjoy.

Keep a proper mindset to understand what a Windows/DOS 386 or 486 PC was doing in 1993 and 1994 compared to what this thing is doing in front of your face. Compare apples to apples in your expectation of how it functions and what it's for.

You're not gonna make it into something that can watch anything other than low resolution MPEG one and two video on, it's not gonna watch DivX or MP4, it can play MP3s, it's not gonna watch DVDs, though you can hook a DVD player with an S-Video port to the S-video input port of the Indy and watching it on a live screen, that works. Email would be a challenge unless it is basic authentication without encryption. Websites are a challenge to pretty much not gonna happen. It does image file viewing OK for most standard formats.
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07-22-2025, 02:37 AM
#33
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
Lovely read Smile cool to hear from someone who’s lived through the life and death of this OS. Despite its shortcomings, I find it awesome to use a relatively powerful pc compared to my 66mhz DX2. I’d like to learn some C so I can do some era appropriate coding, maybe even port a game or two.

On another note, I’m having an issue regard CD’s. Long story short, I put a cd image (CD4.iso) on my ZuluScsi, yet clicking on the CDROM icon shows a blank directory. It mounts fine on Windows. I check the Zulu logs and it says the disk has a block size of 2048. Ok, so I force the image to 512 bytes by renaming it (CD4_512.iso) and I got a PANIC error (vfs_mountroot: no root found) upon resetting the pc, which I don’t know if it’s related to the disk or not. For anyone curious, the Zulu log says:

SCSI ID: 4, BlockSize: 512, Type: 2, Quirks:0, Size: 240748kB, Removable
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2025, 07:33 PM by Anonymoose.)
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07-27-2025, 07:27 PM
#34
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this before but UNIX installed CDs are not CDs, it's impossible to mount them in MS Windows or MacOS so if you've gotten one to mount as a blank directory then you don't have a valid CD image or it's entirely corrupted.

All the old UNIX systems use a 512-byte block sector imaged optical install media which was equal to the sector size in hard drives at that time. They didn't want to put effort into extra firmware to read a normal CD ISO format so in essence the CDs provided are actually specially tailored hard drive images. In the case of SGI Irix they're EFS images with SGI hard drive disk labels but they've been aligned to fit on a CD. Optical discs still have a 2048-byte sectors, you just have to align the data so that if the software tries to read 512 blocks at a time, which is an even multiple of 2048, everything makes sense.

They do not carry CD file systems on them, you cannot mount them under anything other than their native operating system and often a Linux operating system. So the fact that you achieved the impossible means you don't have a valid image. You should've received an immediate error when trying to mount these images on any other machine because they're not ISOs. In real life they should really have the extension of .DD or.img. But we often labeled see the images as .ISO because else people complain and make a bunch of weird stink about it not being the correct extension. But in truth .iso is supposed to mean an CD image with an iso9660 file system present. That's not what these are...

So likely your images are corrupt or not real, download them again from a trusted source and treat them as drive images. You cannot crack them open, you cannot modify them, they are a black box that you either put their image on the Zulu SD or you burn them entirely to a CDR and trust that they're there. You will not be able to mount them unless you do it under Linux. Irix has NO LOOPBACK VFS support out of the box, there is a open source project for it though, so normally SGI Irix cannot mount drive images, that includes CD-ROM images. They have to be burnt onto media and the media physically inserted into a drive or drive emulator device like the Zulu.
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07-27-2025, 09:06 PM
#35
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
Hmm, that’s interesting. I used VirtualCloneDrive in windows and I could view its contents. The iso is a trusted one too, as it came from fsck. I assumed the steps were to download the zip, extract with 7zip to the sd card, the end.
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07-28-2025, 02:17 AM
#36
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
(07-28-2025, 02:17 AM)Anonymoose Wrote:  Hmm, that’s interesting. I used VirtualCloneDrive in windows and I could view its contents. The iso is a trusted one too, as it came from fsck. I assumed the steps were to download the zip, extract with 7zip to the sd card, the end.

From your description I'd say you downloaded the wrong thing. Going on the link you provided, which does not point to install media, but looking at the website, when you download an ISO it remains an iso. There is no zipped iso media so I assume what you did if you downloaded a media "tarball", you need that if you're doing a network based install which is file fetching based-install and the firmware isn't reading a disk. That website should be just fine but assuming you're downloading something like this: 

https://fsck.technology/software/Silicon...%206.5.21/

You'll notice there's nothing to unzip, they are media images and are treated as such. If you're using an emulated CDOM install or a real CDROM install you need the raw images!  If you're trying to put the images on a Zulu you literally put the image file on the Zulu, there's nothing to unpack, nothing to extract, you want the raw image as a file.  Yes you might need to name it with an 512_filename extension to make sure it's treated correctly, but to you it's a 600MB blob of data, a single file per CD image.

If you're doing a network install or a live OS install from a working system you need the files more than you need the media. The reason they exist is as I described above. The CD images are normally not readable by anyone outside of Linux or Irix... So people often need the files to do the network install and they don't want to spend the time cracking open the modified CDROM Disk label EFS Drive images. So often time, sites provide both as a shortcut.

The only thing I'm trying to impress upon you is that the CD images are supposed to be absolutely unintelligible junk to anything that can't read an EFS drive image. So in Windows/MacOS you should not be able to mount them, you should not get a blank image, you should literally get an error that says this is not a CDROM image, which would be accurate.

When this was all relevant/recent you were supposed to own an SGI so you could obviously read your own install discs and copy the files up using a network connection into a file server in order to prepare a network installation source. It just worked itself out if you owned everything. Now people don't have that so often times archive sides provide both, hence your confusion.

On an SGI Indy, Irix 6.5.22 is what you want, try WINWORLD: https://winworldpc.com/product/irix/6522

Also in case no one has told you 6.5.22 is the last SGI irix to support the Indy as well as well as Indigo2.  So please don't try to install a version of the OS of higher than 6.5.22 as it will literally crash and not work. 6.5.22 was a great release, there was nothing wrong with it, some people even run it on later hardware, this is the one you want so please aim for 6.5.22.
(This post was last modified: 07-28-2025, 02:52 AM by weblacky.)
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07-28-2025, 02:49 AM
#37
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
I've been using LOVE on Linux for OS installation, and it's been great so far! My issues regarding the disks are for commercial software.

The manual for Zulu does say it supports ISO, IMG, and HDA. I've found the disks uploaded in a different format (mdf/mds), but converting it to IMG gives me a new issue on IRIX ("Unknown CDROM Drive"). I'm sure I'm still doing something wrong, but I'd prefer to not buy a scsi cdrom drive.
(This post was last modified: 07-28-2025, 08:13 PM by Anonymoose.)
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07-28-2025, 08:11 PM
#38
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
Zulu doesn't care about the format. Those extensions are for your feel good benefit. It doesn't treat them many different other than an iso means that it is a CD drive and the rest of them likely mean they're a hard drive.

So if you're emulating a CD drive with the correct, high-end version of Zulu that supports image files, you should be doing something like  CD4_512.iso for operating system installation media.

When you say commercial software you're creating an ambiguity that makes this unclear. SGI discs should be in the proprietary EFS disc image format I described. Other commercial software may be a standard iso 9660 CD file system. And those would definitely have a problem if they didn't use the normal 2048 CD sector size.

so you'll need to clarify what a commercial CD is. If you're talking about Maya and Photoshop and things like that they'll likely just be normal iso9660 CDs versus an EFS disk labeled image.

But there's no conversion here. As far as you're concerned their giant black box blobs. You're not converting anything to anything.
(This post was last modified: 07-29-2025, 01:01 AM by weblacky.)
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07-29-2025, 12:57 AM
#39
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
Oh I see, I was trying to install Corel Wordperfect and none of the images seemed to work on my Indy (from here). It reports itself as an ISO9660 image, but /CDROM is empty. Sometimes, console gives me an error when opening /CDROM (Process [mount_iso9660] pid 440 killed: process or stack limit exceeded). After INIT 0, it says /CDROM not mounted.
(This post was last modified: 07-29-2025, 02:44 AM by Anonymoose.)
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07-29-2025, 02:42 AM
#40
RE: Advice for a new Indy User
Hmmm...well the SGI version iso (disc 6) for Wordperfect does mount on macOS. it claims it is a iso9660 rockridge filesystem. Irix 6.5 should be able to mount such a CDROM.

Did you correctly (or ever) update your Zulu firmware? They release firmware all the time so before you go further, are you on the newest firmware?

Looking at the install.wp script... nothing about this demands it has to be from a CDROM or even in the CDROM folder. I would suggest you simply open it on your personal computer and FTP the entire CDROM file contents to a directory on the Indy and executed on the Indy from the hard drive.



(07-29-2025, 02:42 AM)Anonymoose Wrote:  Oh I see, I was trying to install Corel Wordperfect and none of the images seemed to work on my Indy (from here). It reports itself as an ISO9660 image, but /CDROM is empty. Sometimes, console gives me an error when opening /CDROM (Process [mount_iso9660] pid 440 killed: process or stack limit exceeded). After INIT 0, it says /CDROM not mounted.
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07-29-2025, 04:23 AM


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