Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get
#1
Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get
So compared to 15 years ago, where we had 4 major rendering engines, we've basically got two now. 

The four from 15 years ago: Trident, Presto, Gecko, Webkit/Blink

The two today: Webkit and Gecko/Servo.

This is worse because Mozilla, long the underdog of the internet, went political slowly starting in the 2010s. They've not let up, and they're basically now an activist group. I'm not here to argue the merits of their positions or not, rather point out that it's dangerous for them to insert themselves as the arbiter of what is and isn't acceptable. All of the corporate/activist pandering we've had in recent years, whether towards legitimate groups or not, has made the internet a worse and less safe place. All we've done is sow resentment and hatred of people more. You don't get people to change by shoving what you believe is right down their throats, that usually causes people to dig in deeper. I would know -- I have a friend who right now argues for the Confederacy and has sympathies to neo-Confederate movements. Anyone who just straight up trashes his opinion digs him in deeper. So I've tried to show him that as he's isolated/shunned from his peers, maybe his position is untenable. 

Google, Microsoft, Apple are all effectively aligned in alliance, as Blink/Webkit share a codebase and many features. This is not unlike the early 90s when Microsoft and many others rebranded NCSA Mosiac with a few proprietary extensions (Trident is descended from Mosaic)

Outside of those, you have a few derivatives. UXP/Goanna for Mozilla, which is maintained by the Pale Moon/Basilisk project. Only issue is that MoonChild and Matt Toobin are douchebags who abuse the MPL's terms to act like power tripping internet police rather than, you know, just giving people nice reminders and not being a bitch about it. Don't immediately escalate to "citing" people for it. That's just wrong. There's also Waterfox, but people don't like their parent company. I use Vivaldi, which has a proprietary version of Blink. Theres a handful of others that are outliers. Plus Chinese browsers like UC Browser, which... well use at your own risk if you really wanna. 

There's not a whole lot of choice, there's not a whole lot of optimism to be had, and as Wirth's law bears down on an increasingly obese internet, we're left with no choice. 

Sorry to be all doom and gloom, but guys, we need to tear the whole internet standard down and start over. Not Gemini. That's no the future. Neither is Gopher. But we need something that's "good enough" for most work, but isn't fucking bearing us down with a ton of JS and shit.

I'm the system admin of this site. Private security technician, licensed locksmith, hack of a c developer and vintage computer enthusiast. 

https://contrib.irixnet.org/raion/ -- contributions and pieces that I'm working on currently. 

https://codeberg.org/SolusRaion -- Code repos I control

Technical problems should be sent my way.
Raion
Chief IRIX Officer

Trade Count: (9)
Posts: 4,240
Threads: 533
Joined: Nov 2017
Location: Eastern Virginia
Website Find Reply
09-16-2021, 04:02 PM
#2
RE: Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get
And Dillo's been dead for more than five years. I tried porting Dillo to IRIX using MIPSPro but gave up due to MIPSPro's inability to deal with vararg functions.

Project: Temporarily lost at sea
Plan: World domination! Or something...
vishnu
Tezro, Octane2, 2 x Onyx4

Trade Count: (0)
Posts: 1,245
Threads: 41
Joined: Dec 2017
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Find Reply
09-17-2021, 02:23 AM
#3
RE: Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get
A lot of the problems with the modern web could probably be solved if educators and employers discouraged the abuse of certain technologies. JavaScript is like mustard. A spoonful too much and you ruin the whole sandwich.

Octane2  R14k 600MHz, V10, 2GB RAM, 73GB disk, IRIX 6.5.22
shrek
It's not done until it's ogre.

Trade Count: (0)
Posts: 233
Threads: 19
Joined: Jan 2019
Location: United States
Find Reply
10-05-2021, 05:31 AM
#4
RE: Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get
I think this is all a consequence of the "rental" model society and economy are headed towards.
When everyone looks for "free" services, options tend to disappear, due to the increasing cost of maintaining more complex services.

The old Internet had more options of browsers. Remember how portable Firefox 3.6 was?
The same happened with communities. How many millions of small forums not unlike this one existed?

I go out of my way to look out for places online where I can make a contribution that makes a difference, and who recognise me as a partner or, at least, a paying customer with rights and expectations. I try to get software from small developers, pay for it, contribute on Patreon when it makes sense, buy physical products from small shops or producers when I can.

What happens on the Internet is just the reflection of what's happening to the broader, physical world. The bloat, the forced obsolescence, etc..
It's bizarre to see a page downloading 5MB of data to show a small picture and three paragraphs of text, but hey, trackers, ads, cookies, JS, etc..

Educators and employers are not interested in solving the problem, especially employers. Using pre-made (and preferably free) packages is much cheaper than paying honest dollar to a proper developer to maintain what you need. This crap is everywhere.

- Glue together a bunch of open source solutions, pipe them together in an indescribable mess after a 2-week sprint, product done. Yes, it is super inefficient and unstable, but it works. We can add RAM, CPU and bandwidth to the problem.
- Why hire a proper web developer? Everyone has a cousin who can put together a wordpress page for free.
- Why hire a photographer for your wedding? You have a nephew with a DSLR who is very popular in Instagram.

Look, I have a degree in Music and before I moved to Europe I played lots of weddings. People always protested that I charged the equivalent to 50 USD + fuel to play the Wedding March and go away. I always had to argue that you want a professional not to ruin one of the most important days of your life and sometimes I'd lose a client.

So this is the problem. Everything has to be free or cheap. No matter if its inelegant, crash-prone, bloated. It was "agile", done in 2 weeks, looks pretty and it loads. Good enough.

Edit: this is why we are ending up with no browser and just a patch of amended old standards. The web began quite disconnected from commercial interests. Now, who is going to put the effort? Who has the money for that? Google? Facebook? Who is going to accept a new web standard based on their proposals?
What university would invest in such research and development? None.

I guess as long as we can count on TCP/IP, it's our own fight to keep our own small corner of the web the way we like - open, where you can debate and disagree without decaying into hatred and idiocy, and we should keep helping the way we can.
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2021, 07:27 AM by Shiunbird.)
Shiunbird
Administrator

Trade Count: (1)
Posts: 553
Threads: 45
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Czech Republic
Find Reply
10-05-2021, 07:23 AM
#5
RE: Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get
For the web, looking at how CVEs for Google Chrome now trickle down to Edge, and also to WebKit to a lower degree. We have a chain that is week because of monocultures. Why didn't MS or Opera release Trident or Presto I will never know.

I agree on this "rental" economy BS. I choose to drive an 18 year old car with nearly enough miles on it to get to the Moon because I don't want a car that tells me how to drive or that law enforcement can disable (i.e. a Tesla) because of an accusation, or that is gonna be trashed because it blew $5,000 in airbags that are like getting hit in the face with a bag full of gravel and can give you major neck injuries (I would know, being I've been hit by a lot of them over the years either accidentally or in the course of a car wreck.)

I choose to run a site that is reactionary to Facebook, Reddit etc. I don't care that there's an SGI group on Facebook that serves as a glorified link to another site. If that's what they want, let them have it because boomers who prefer Twitter or Facebook aren't the market I'm looking to corner.

I'm the system admin of this site. Private security technician, licensed locksmith, hack of a c developer and vintage computer enthusiast. 

https://contrib.irixnet.org/raion/ -- contributions and pieces that I'm working on currently. 

https://codeberg.org/SolusRaion -- Code repos I control

Technical problems should be sent my way.
Raion
Chief IRIX Officer

Trade Count: (9)
Posts: 4,240
Threads: 533
Joined: Nov 2017
Location: Eastern Virginia
Website Find Reply
10-08-2021, 02:24 AM
#6
RE: Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get
A lot of different topics brought up with a common thread. I too was raised to fix what you have, own quality goods (if possible), try to educate yourself to be a smart shopper (consumer) and try fix your problem right the first time (even if that means acknowledging you're in over your head and you should have a Professional do it, because you can't risk another break down.

I'm not anti-capitalist (in that I believe a person should benefit from their own work/research), however I fully agree with claim that the "rental" style of living is slowing taking over aspects of our lives that we used to have more choices of, in products.

Anything that mandates "connection" to the cloud means it's not going to be around in 7 years (service will change or be terminated). Security/DRM components in products often spy/report back on you and cannot be replaced modularly by yourself (car electronics for example.).

For browsers, I actually don't like the past where there was many browsers...because you still had to run a popular one so a banking or eCommerce website would work correctly. I really just want a webpage to work so whatever browser gives me that...I use. I of course don't love being recorded online. But at least if you use the current "user registration" function of a browser you often do get a way to clear the company cache of your personal data (or so we're told).

However this marketing of "cloud" is a very bad thing for consumers. Back in the early days if you owned a connected appliance you either forwarded a port for HTTP or you used to VPN to get into your home network and operate the device (security system or the like).

Here's my latest example of this big issue for a device that literally has no real obsolescence: Automated, dry, cat food feeder. OK, So I've been looking for one because I'm lazy and don't want to get up at 7AM to feed my cat, I'll get up later and give him some other food. But he needs regular feeding (like we all do). He's a rescue so he cannot self-manage. So he needs portioning.

There are lots of automated feeders on Amazon...but all the connected ones DEMAND a cloud application to use them through. Now that may be convenient...but signals a death clock on the product that COULD be only a few years. When in reality, I could just have the device itself run a small HTTP server, with a SIMPLE page with controls and buttons. Use either remote VPN when I'm away or when I'm inside the network just go to the right page, click a button, bamn...food.

In the 90's and early 2000's devices had their own simple, unsecured pages...that was fine for home use. As long as it didn't open the garage door or unlock your house, what's the worst thing that can happen (assuming you check up on things). If your cat misses a meal or two...it won't die. You'll see and fix the situation.

But by using some foreign company cloud app I'd have an appliance that NEEDS to be online (bidirectional hazards) and can now only be used through the cloud app (wrong, no local control). I have a lamp timer that works that way...has an IOS app and everything and works...right up until it won't anymore when that cloud service goes.

By NOT being self-contained this new IoT cloud BS is accelerating waste and diminishing product life spans...which in turn means they normally aren't worth what you paid for them. You expected 8-10 years of life...you got 5 or whatever. That's kind of fraud, the only reason it's not is they never told you the expected lifespan of the product.

I think (along with right to repair) that ALL appliances and cars should have a "design life" metric. That is to say there were only designed to run for 5 years or 10 years with proper support, maintenance, and duty cycle (warranty and lightning strikes notwithstanding). It's not a hard number, it's a design intent (with a stated daily mins or hours of usage).

Something like that would allow me to know if this a cheap item (one-time use tool) or a lawn mower I'd use for 25 years.

I agree with the assertion that people will seek lowest-cost solutions, specifically when inflation keeps going up, wages don't keep up, and people's discretionary spending keeps getting hacked into smaller pieces. People still want the same lifestyles so they pressure for lower prices to maintain them. Right now, something's got to give, I hate to think of what though.

The real issue here is if you're involved in ANY service industry that repairs, installs, and maintains something...you're not given the credit/thanks/respect you really deserve if you're actually a professional at your job. Definitely shoot the messenger here. There are enough people that don't care if it can be repaired, they're still upset it broke.

Sometimes, it's bad luck (a part failed, nothing you did wrong, it happened), sometimes it's age, sometimes it's mistreatment (actually most times it's mistreatment).

I agree that I don't plan on buying cars like Teslas because unless they give the secrets away when they stop supporting a certain model of car, where are you going to get the many electronic modules as they fail? Can they even be applied to the system without security software? What about basic parts? They also keep making design changes in production so a gen 1 model S is very different from a current gen S, even the frame has undergone changes, and many of the electronics have too. Sometimes body changes mean old parts aren't going to be made because the redesign has a new part...that doesn't fit in the old car! So the same model now has several variants of itself!

Will we be seeing a first gen Model S on the road in 20 years, 30 years, more? I don't think so. Now granted, the last statistic I saw on US consumers said that people really only keep cars about 11.5-12 years on average. But I'm someone where if I love the car...why would I want a new one? If I think a new one will be better than what I have...well then what I have isn't something I'll likely care to keep going for many decades. So I guess pick your poison.

I think right to repair mandate and perhaps policy mandates that devices MUST be functionally operable (can perform all locally advertised functions when purchased) without a connection to the internet or company infrastructure would really go a long way in modern life.

I don't think consumers are getting "dumber", I think so much has been hidden from them that it's hard to know even what you don't know. Buying a product no longer comes with FULL DISCLOSURE of that product (old days had service guides, parts diagram, circuit diagram, etc). These days you don't even get a manual that describes the entire operation.

Most combustion engine products still have this level documentation. Most modern appliances no longer carry that info (fridge control board testing routine, PWM fan control testing, variable speed compressor inverter tech, etc).

Some appliances that haven't really changed (like clothes dryers) still have all that stuff. But the more blackbox electronics they put in, the LESS they seem to have to disclose (by convention).

I think the term value is really key here. It's very hard to evaluate things todaye, because it's hard to know a product's real end value. Assuming it works, you can calculate it's usage on a job site and all that. But given the unknowns (not disclosed) the product may in fact be a bad purchase, break down, overload, not handle the duty cycle. Was this withheld from you, or did you just not do your research? These days, it's often withheld and not stated publicly.

I always do a ton of research before I buy something (it's big deal), if I was a busy person and didn't have time..I feel I'd have a lot crap products now.

I hate being tagged as "old", but I'll say it...often for the consumer, most appliances were BETTER back in "the day" (whichever day your day was). In a race to gave 10%-20% more efficiency, we added a HUGE amount of electronics and sensors and such...that when they work do give us a more efficient dishwasher/car engine/refrigerator/etc...but more to break places to breakdown...hence LESS reliable in the very long run. I will say that most modern car engines are fine (refined) and unless they use a new technique that fails, we know how to make a combustion engine that works (if we want). So most of the time it's the extra stuff on a car (or some sensor that the engine uses that now prevents us from using it when it fails).

Modern electronics aren't designed to for rugged, 24/7 lifespans. Even the military has figured that out and uses hours counters and parts schedules to ensure operation. The more fragile tech we place in our lives the more chances to fail.
weblacky
I play an SGI Doctor, on daytime TV.

Trade Count: (10)
Posts: 1,716
Threads: 88
Joined: Jan 2019
Location: Seattle, WA
Find Reply
10-08-2021, 03:47 AM
#7
RE: Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get
Yup.

I got two iRobot machines (a vacuum cleaner and the mop) just because it really saves me precious time. But I hate that it depends on the cloud.

My grandfather lived in the US in the 60s, for some Army assignment. He bought there a drying machine - I think the brand is Sears Kenmore. Electric drum, gas for heat.
IT STILL WORKS. He painted it twice, he changed the gear belt 3 or 4 times. He can't find the original gear belt anymore, but it's easy to modify a common belt to work on it. The ignition is provided by a huge ceramic bulb that grows incandescent while the gas flows through. The thing is literally a flamethrower (I will take some pictures next time I go home). The machine waits for the bulb to glow, then opens the gas valve.

When he moved back from the US, he brought 3-4 extra bulbs with him. He NEVER had to change them. The machine is inspected every year. No gas leaks, no problems with the wiring. Everything looks pristine after almost 60 years of continuous use (2-3x per week).

Perhaps now it has consumed enough resources to justify a replacement. But what is the energy costs for extracting the ore, melting it, shipping everything around?
I'm typing on a Model M from January 1987 that I got from someone in Nekochan and, honestly, the thing will probably die after myself. Isn't this the ecological way to go?
Plus - go find a decent keyboard these days. Junk everywhere. Why do they ship every OEM computer with a keyboard and mouse anyway? They are rubbish. Aren't there enough mice and keyboard around already?

My 5 year old LG washing machine already moves, walks, pees and the rotary control connects via some stupid plastic pins, and they are already old, so most of the clicks when you rotate are not registered. The filter system is so stupid that every time you try to clean it, it floods the bathroom. The machine stopped detecting bad CG, so it just moves around and shakes like crazy, instead of informing me that the clothes must be rearranged.

I was reading about some old Teslas having problems to run because the SD card is not durable enough. Seriously, a 60-70K USD car that won't drive properly because of a cheap SD card?

And yes, lack of documentation... fml it's so hard to figure out things these days. You can't even trust the appliance is performing as it should when you run it for the first time.

You don't even have the option to buy something of quality even if you want. It just doesn't exist. I managed to find three shoemakers around, but the shoes are very expensive (they offer lifetime service for the leather and replacing the soles, though). Clothes are also awful. I bought a tuxedo from a lady here that buys her clothes from the dead. When someone truly old dies, she goes to their house and get the clothes. The hats, trousers, suits, are all so incredibly superior in quality - it's infuriating.

For home... all the IoT stuff I've got is made on Arduino or Raspberry. It's cheaper than the alternatives and you know it won't go obsolete in a year. It may not look as fancy, but, really... Why can't the apps for IoT things talk directly from the devices in your LAN? This mandatory phone-home crap is just... ARGH

</rant>
Shiunbird
Administrator

Trade Count: (1)
Posts: 553
Threads: 45
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Czech Republic
Find Reply
10-08-2021, 12:35 PM
#8
RE: Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get


Well - this proves our point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LxPEz9x2fs not sure why the embed failed. An Atari ST in daily use since 1985.
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2021, 05:21 PM by Shiunbird.)
Shiunbird
Administrator

Trade Count: (1)
Posts: 553
Threads: 45
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Czech Republic
Find Reply
10-08-2021, 05:20 PM
#9
RE: Let's talk about just how screwed the internet's browsing is gonna get
On certain browsers and applications the embed can get a little confused. It worked over here

I'm the system admin of this site. Private security technician, licensed locksmith, hack of a c developer and vintage computer enthusiast. 

https://contrib.irixnet.org/raion/ -- contributions and pieces that I'm working on currently. 

https://codeberg.org/SolusRaion -- Code repos I control

Technical problems should be sent my way.
Raion
Chief IRIX Officer

Trade Count: (9)
Posts: 4,240
Threads: 533
Joined: Nov 2017
Location: Eastern Virginia
Website Find Reply
10-08-2021, 05:40 PM


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)