[Irinikus]

I absolutely love how Irinikus has "complete" lines of specific machines. I imagine some parts of your home are like a computer museum.

Cheers!

Thanks Man!

I think it's about time I start to calm down on the computer collecting though!

[Gamefan]

I absolutely love how Irinikus has "complete" lines of specific machines. I imagine some parts of your home are like a computer museum.

Cheers!

Thanks Man!

I think it's about time I start to calm down on the computer collecting though!

[vishnu]

I still have my circa-2010 Apple Macbook Pro, but since those fucking asswipes at Apple refuse to support it it's been running Slackware like an Olympic sprinter for years.

So, to put it into the vernacular of Linus Torvalds, FUCK YOU APPLE!

[weblacky]

I still have my circa-2010 Apple Macbook Pro, but since those fucking asswipes at Apple refuse to support it it's been running Slackware like an Olympic sprinter for years.

So, to put it into the vernacular of Linus Torvalds, FUCK YOU APPLE!

I also have a Core 2 Duo 2010 macbook, it's a nice machine...but let's be real...that was 12+ years ago.  Apple support life was "generally" (but NOT during ANY of the three arch transitions - Motorola 6800, PPC, Intel, Apple ARM)...those were a screw you to buyers in support life) within each arch about 5-8 years...lately more like 8+ on average for me!

Yes, to keep your Apple working you HAVE to keep it nice...so at the end of 8+ years...it still looks brand new!  You made it!  But it's still a long time in today's world.  I just retired a Macbook Pro Retina 2012...that was how long ago?

Most PC laptops don't really last 4 years in most people's (usually 2-3 from what I see) hands and to be fair you can baby a PC laptop and go 10 years (I have several, but support life is often 3 years for PC vendors - parts & accessories).  So you often cannot get a new genuine battery or nice accessories, etc. after a few years for your PC laptop.

I tell people that if you factor in the MacOS upgrades (they used to charge for them, remember) part supply lifespan, the ecosystem of free (Apple ID driven) services: iCloud service sync and current integration with IOS, iPadOS, and apple-to-apple sync that you can definitely get your money's worth if you:

1. (Retail) BUY ONLY current gen stuff (unless it's gifted or used)...they don't price drop fast enough...waiting for a price drop doesn't help you...it hurts you...support life slipping away faster then price drops...so after 2 years you're overpaying for an "old" model that will lose support faster for little money saved.  Buy during "good" refreshes...hold for 8+ years...until you're three MacOSes out of date (max) then buy again. For me...that's been very successful...assuming you don't have an accident or equipment failure that's not your own doing.  I've never had an Apple product "Fail", All my old stuff still works as well...baby it.  Doesn't mean they don't fail...just never happend to me and I'm hyper about how I treat my stuff.

2. FREE: HOW to use their free services to the greatest extent possible...KNOW your iCloud ID and understand the advertised feature sets.  Decided which services you'll be participating and which you're not comfortable doing (online photos...no thanks, But online contacts...yes).

3. RESEARCH heavily before buying (unless under duress or school...where you HAVE to buy now...never works out well) and jump in at the best time you can see for featuresets to price point.

4. PROTECT, Apple laptop are not rugged, not nearly as people think.  They are DESIGNED die with the smallest water exposure (I've seen a three drops take one down, in the keyboard or touch surface) that's how they force turn over for a LONG support life (on average).  So get a nice carrying case, don't compress the laptop between books, don't add things to the screen that are too thick, keep your hands clean, don't eat/drink over the laptop...ever.  If you do...get an external setup to push the laptop away from you.

The numbers can work out if you're realistic and know what kind of work you do and what kind of power you need for your current employment/tasks.  Give yourself some margin to predict needs 5 years from now (so 16GB of RAM instead of 8GB, maybe).

Don't finance anything, period...buy what you can afford...or upgrade on a smaller interval (cycle) of 3-4 years instead of 5-8 years.


Apple Desktops are different...and vary too wildly to generalize as much. I don't like iMac due to trapping MB with LCD, so Mac Mini to Mac Studio (Pro desktop's gone...it's not coming back in consumer forum, only for Pixar animators now).

We're all collectors so we all (likely) share the hatred of wasting things and throwing things away that "work"...SGIs....

I get it, I have the same issue.  Upgrading your Apple setup every 5-6 years for iPhone and 5-8 years for laptops/Desktop is reasonable...as long as you benefit from owning them (make some amount of money).  If they are for children or entertainment only, then scale down the specs (Apple MB Air) and upgrade more frequently instead.  Less

Apple definitely doesn't care about "vintage" stuff and they have zero issues changing things on a whim to suit their business requirements or wants.  Compatibility is NOT their goal (unlike MS), if you stay within the timeframe of their ecosystem...it all generally works out.  

Yes there are hacks and mods to keep older machines on newer MacOSes new, that's okay for a few years...but it's a risk.

If you use Apple products for productivity...go with a flow and be smart and you'll get your value!  Be impulsive and reckless and likely you'll feel you overspent.  For those Apple products that made it through, well if you can give them a new second life, great.  But often it's like the old car, park it and forget about it.  

Until WIndows 11, converting the old Intel-based computers to MS Windows was a good second life for 2-3 years after Apple support ended...now we can't even do that so...factor that in.

[vishnu]

Well look, all the points you make are perfectly relevant but only from an Apple corporate perspective. My 1997 Pentium Pro 200 is sitting here today running the latest version of Slackware just fine. My 13 year old Macbook Pro is doing the same thing. So fine, Apple is all about programmed obsolescence. Oh, so they say wait, your 2000 dollar Macbook is five years old? Too bad motherfucker, throw it out and buy a new one! This Macbook is the only Apple product I've ever bought, and I'm certainly never going to buy anything else from Apple. As far as I'm concerned they can take their ridiculous market cap and all their shit products, in particular including anything programmed in that worthless piece of crap language Objective C, and implode themselves in the next OceanGate expedition.

[weblacky]

Well look, all the points you make are perfectly relevant but only from an Apple corporate perspective. My 1997 Pentium Pro 200 is sitting here today running the latest version of Slackware just fine. My 13 year old Macbook Pro is doing the same thing. So fine, Apple is all about programmed obsolescence. Oh, so they say wait, your 2000 dollar Macbook is five years old? Too bad motherfucker, throw it out and buy a new one! This Macbook is the only Apple product I've ever bought, and I'm certainly never going to buy anything else from Apple. As far as I'm concerned they can take their ridiculous market cap and all their shit products, in particular including anything programmed in that worthless piece of crap language Objective C, and implode themselves in the next OceanGate expedition.

I stopped the visceral reactions to the industry when I now use all three platforms (Windows, Linux , MacOS) for the past 15 years, dual OS user for over 25+ (Linux & Windows). 

While I agree that the trend may be to produce more "power hungry" OSes that REQUIRE newer hardware...I'll admit, we could do more with less like we used to...but know one seems to see value in that at the consumer computing level.  I believe like all other industries with the idea of choice...choose the best tool for the job at hand...use it...put it back in your collection...feel free to choose another tool for a different job...not every job needs a hammer.

However with Apple moving from Intel, the choices just got a lot harder, they used to be much more simple.  If MS decides to embrace support for ARM and Apple Silicon for Windows 11 for real, it will start to reconverge again.  For now...it's little bit of a hard time.

In regards to Obj-C...yeah I dislike and find it unreadable and no one uses it anymore.  Swift is better but definitely has its pain/hard points, but it's not so different than MS with DOTNET.  Each wants lock in.  You don't HAVE to play that game if you want (I don't) but you'll will limit what you can reasonable do (featuresets) within each OS if you don't use the "preferred" libs and tools.  But it's not impossible.

Yes 12 years is a long time, humans naturally think in decades...I'm basically talking about leapfrogging nearly every decade on an Apple PC...that's actually impressive.  Most people don't even keep a car for 12 year (on average in the USA) and they cost a lot more to upgrade to a recent automobile.

My point is the industry slowed for awhile...2004-2013 and we got a taste of older hardware lastling longer...well it's accelerating again and we are back to 1996-2004 acceleration with the introduction of ARM and performance enhancement on very low-power CPUs for consumer targeted PCs.  We may even be at the begging on a new computing paradigm, who knows.

But humans only live for like 8-9 decades...decades.  You're not really considering everything in a logical sense when you bring computing hardware into frame that's 25+ years old.  The components themselves weren't even designed with that lifespan in mind.  

We complain about the fact that you cannot consume the modern web with an system much below a Core2 Duo and even then...it's not fun.  Let alone older.

It depends on your expectations and what "computing" means to you, I guess.  The vast majority of "personal computing" as I define it as singular, by yourself...no internet...no network...all input is from you for your own benefit (desktop publishing, calculations, spreadsheet, basic printing, specialized software for organizing a business, finance ledgers & accounting, warehouse, power plant, etc) was achieved in the early 1990s.  The mixture of color graphics, computing power, storage, removable media, programming languages was sufficient for personal needs.  Desert island type stuff.

But now we have high speed networking, media, video streaming, High resolution displays that almost meet the human visual system limits.  These are pushing requirements to a whole other level, not just information and retrieval but representation and display (presentation).  So we push those specs higher to satisfy that...but our graphics are still not realistic...to get to realistic graphics...much bigger pushes will be needed.

In summation I'll say I switched to apple in 2009 as my primary personal computing platform for several reasons but the biggest was I hate buying new stuff all the time and I hate being abandoned before I've gotten my value from a computer.  The rate at which PC manufacturer close support for a product is staggeringly fast!  Some entities like Dell at least have a 5 year part supply line after the stop selling a system...that's nice!  So they tend to be my PC (business class, not home products)

With Apple, the systems are supported longer than PC...so I get to enjoy my purchase LONGER than a Windows PC. For personal information management and workflow, I've come to enjoy using MacOS for the included features where I only have buy a few apps, the rest is built in...Windows...many apps to manage for my expected workflow.

Linux could it too but i'm too tired and old to manage Linux anymore, it was fun when I was in Highschool and had all the time in the world...I don't anymore. 

Lastly MS has made this exact same decisions with Windows 11...a cut off.  Yeah there are workarounds...but officially CUT OFF, they want a clean break...and I don't like it...but I understand.

While I'm not a gamer, nor a media content creator, I consume the web nearly all day looking things up, figuring what broke, seeing people's answers, etc. The pace and speed of my expectations requires being able to research ideas, thoughts, problems, solutions...fast.  Without the modern web I'd not be very effective nor very productive.

I appreciate computing history, but requirements change...you can still use the systems for their intended functions back then...but todays requirements often sneak in and become necessary.

Sometimes old tools work just fine, some requirements haven't really changed and in those cases I agree...use what you have. But I'm not going to sit in front of a 10 year old system as my daily driver and pretend I'm as productive, efficient, and happy with my user experience as I'd be with a top of the line, brand new computer.

[vishnu]

Everything you've said makes perfect sense, I am by no means a Luddite, my personally owned daily driver has 12 four GHz CPUs and 32 gigabytes of RAM, it runs Slackware Linux 15.0. I've never used any Microsoft products, so I divest myself of any opinion about them. My first job out of college was with AT&T. I've never coded in anything other than C & C++, with the exception of BASH and Perl. I don't know anything about Rust, or Go, or Swift, or C#, or Python, or any of the other "golly gee this is the way cool way to the future" languages. The way we look at it at my place of employ, if you can't do it using C and C++ with Linux and X11, Xt and Motif, it's not worth doing. We use a whole crapton of extra widgets with the programs we write, which is to say, widgets that aren't part of the official Motif distribution, for example the plotting widgets from Fermilab, the BAE widget for spreadsheet processing, I won't bore y'all by continuing on regarding them, but really, the stuff that Qt or GTK can do? Motif can do all of that. Motif is LGPL and we have zero interest in switching toolkits for anything we write. We don't sell our software to anybody, we use it for our own internal purposes and we share it for free with our customer, the US Department of Defense, what they do with it, or whoever they share it with, for example our competitors in the defense industry, we don't care. And for what it's worth, programming isn't my main interest, my main interest is rainfall in this area (Eric Idle joke).

[Irinikus]

Today I started messing around with this machine. There were mismatched DIMMS, so I pulled the odd ones and the system now only has 256MB of RAM, but this should be sufficient for such a system! (I way prefer to have matched DIMMS!)





I've also started to take a look at installing some games, and have installed Dark Forces so far. Here's what the desktop currently looks like:



Here's he current system configuration:





As with all machines, there are quite a few future upgrade options for this machine, including the likes of the 500MHz G3 CPU!

[Irinikus]

I just purchased this card for this system: (The 128MB Apple version of the Radion 9200, the fastest card that will go into a G3)







It comes with a driver CD, which supports Mac Classic OS 9.2!!!





Here are the card's details:



Next I'll get one of these SCSI adapters for the machine, as the one it's currently fitted with is crap and with this I could improve the drive performance by up to 8X!!! As The drive that it's fitted with is capable of doing 80MB/s and it's currently only doing 10MB/s!!!





The system's fitted with a Quantum Viking II:

[Irinikus]

I just purchased this SCSI U320 card for this machine:



Unfortunately it won't run under Mac OS 9.2 as the driver doesn't support it, so I'm going to have to upgrade to Mac OS 10.4.11 Tiger, as Tiger is the latest version of Mac OS which will run on the G3! :(



I don't want to destroy the Mac OS 9,2 install, so I plan to install a Pair of these Hitachi 15KRPM U320 SCSI drives. (The same type that are going into my Dual Pentium Pro build)



I intend using a pair of these SCSI cables to wire the drives up and keep everything neat:



I will attempt to go with software RAID 0, but if that fails I'll simply install the OS on one of the drives and use the other to store ISO's

EIther way, this system's going to receive a significant performance upgrade as far as the system drive goes!