Irix Iso's???
#11
RE: Irix Iso's???
Hate to be the correcting guy here, but they're EFS images, not ISOs.

Traditionally an ISO file is a optical media file containing the ISO-9660 or Joliet, Rock ridge, UDF etc. Or a modified form (I.E. game console formats)

These are EFS (Extent FS) images and thus cannot be called ISOs.

The reason being ISO indicates a certain interoperability and standard and these are not standards compliant.

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08-27-2021, 05:37 PM
#12
RE: Irix Iso's???
I have named my IRIX 6.5.30 images .iso, and they burn perfectly to CD! All of my 6.5.30 installs have been carried out from a set of disks, which I burned in this way.

I'm not arguing the format difference, I'm merely pointing out that it works.
(This post was last modified: 08-27-2021, 06:58 PM by Irinikus.)
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08-27-2021, 06:57 PM
#13
RE: Irix Iso's???
That's because usually, most smart burning software can autodetect it's not a valid iso format and will select the proper format and settings. But there's plenty of crap out there, and there's plenty to get wrong when you plant in people's heads these are ISO files when they're not. I know it seems nitpicking, but it's coming from a place of standards compliance.

It's a lot like calling non x86 computers PCs. Does it work? Yes. Do people understand? In most cases. But so much literature has PC and PC-compatible language that such things should be avoided for obvious reasons.

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08-27-2021, 07:03 PM
#14
RE: Irix Iso's???
Hi there

just to point this one out: EFS and ISO are filesystems. A CD is just a medium, a "carrier" of data. The problem IMO is that the term ISO has become equivalent to CD, whatever data it contains.

You get to know the difference (or at least you should) when dealing with IRIX or Tru64, where some disks come in ISO filesystem format (most notably documentation CDs) and some in efs (IRIX) or ufs (Tru64 - yes, people at DEC thought it was a good idea to sell CDs with ufs filesystem on it). as SGI volumes with EFS partitions (IRIX) or OSF/1 volumes with UFS partitions (Tru64).

The best way to not confuse this is to rename images accordingly and give the ISO images the name it they should have: irix_doc.ifs (ifs = isofs), irix_inst_and_overlays.efs, tru64_spl_2007.ufs, irix_inst_and_overlays.sgi, tru64_spl_2007.osf, etc.

Volume vs. Filesystem
----------------------

A volume is a disk or group of disks that have exactly one volume header describing the structure of the disk(s) (partitions, filesystems on these partitions, disk geometry, boot programs, ...).

A filesystem is data with a specific format that resides on either a whole disk (rare) or on a partition of a volume (most common):

--------------------------
| VH | EFS | EFS ... EFS |
--------------------------
|            CD          |
--------------------------

SGI supplied CD's are not EFS filesystems, but SGI volumes containing one or more partitions that contain EFS filesystems. This means they could as well contain any other filesystem supported by IRIX instead of EFS (for example XFS, ISOFS, ...):

----------------------------
| VH | EFS | XFS ... ISOFS |
----------------------------
|            CD            |
----------------------------


OTOH ISO images are filesystems, not volumes containing a filesystem. They would be equivalent to creating an EFS filesystem spanning the whole 650MB of a CD:


------------------------------
|          ISOFS             |
------------------------------
|            CD              |
------------------------------


------------------------------
|            EFS             |
------------------------------
|            CD              |
------------------------------

As a sidenote: volume headers and disklabels are similar terms, with only some minor differences. Most of the time both terms can be used interchangeably.


What's up with burning software and Linux loop mount?
------------------------------------------------------

When you take an SGI volume image (for example installation and overlays CD image) and rename it to *.iso on your computer, it doesn't automagically become an ISO filesystem. It is still an SGI volume. When your CD burning software opens up this 'fake' ISO file it silently checks for ISO filesystem format and if not there, it just treats the image as a raw dump, passing it along without formatting, effectively burning a new SGI volume image on the CD.

In the case of Linux, a similar semantic happens in the background. If you try to loop mount an SGI volume (for example installation and overlays CD image), the kernel code reads out the SGI volume header, jumps to the EFS partition and that's what gets mounted.


EDIT: Excuse me for the confusion yesterday. Corrected some information and added some more. Hope this helps.


Cheers
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2021, 08:33 AM by TruHobbyist.)
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08-28-2021, 06:35 AM
#15
RE: Irix Iso's???
Yeah. I am an advocate for .img, or .efs to be used here. .img being a raw filesystem dump explicitly.

I'm the system admin of this site. Private security technician, licensed locksmith, hack of a c developer and vintage computer enthusiast. 

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08-28-2021, 02:11 PM
#16
RE: Irix Iso's???
the keyword is: "raw dao" raw disc at once - .iso

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08-28-2021, 06:04 PM
#17
RE: Irix Iso's???
Would BIN/CUE or MDF be better than ISO at imaging physical SGI CDs and burning them back to blank media in that case?

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09-02-2021, 09:55 AM
#18
RE: Irix Iso's???
(09-02-2021, 09:55 AM)CyberMonkey Wrote:  Would BIN/CUE or MDF be better than ISO at imaging physical SGI CDs and burning them back to blank media in that case?

First of all, once again, IRIX CDs are not ISOs, even if you name them *.iso. They do not have an ISO9660 filesystem, they have disklabel style partitioning and usually an EFS filesystem.

Some of the formats you mention are useful to capture 'special' discs, like CDs with copy protection mechanisms (games) or audio CDs. None of that is necessary for IRIX CDs. They are regular block devices. You can clone (image) them with dd.

The only reason to rename IRIX disc images to *.iso has nothing to do with IRIX, and everything with brain-dead CD writing software on Windows. It is fairly common that these programs will only let you choose from *.iso in their write disc image dialogs.

Regarding backups of IRIX discs (or optical media in common), there are two things to consider:

  1. Archival of discs (backup) to protect against damage or loss of the original and preservation for future users. For this purpose you want 1:1 copies of your originals. I had the 'pleasure' of working with a sysadmin in my university days who handed me a set of IRIX installation discs cloned with mkisofs .... not great for installation purposes.
  2. Derivative copies for ease of use or special purposes. Think of media for network installations (tar files). Because information gets lost in the creation of a derivative copy, it is not a replacement for a 1:1 backup copy. It is possible to create a TAR file from a disc image, but the opposite is very hard and will never result in a 1:1 copy of the original disc. Not all derivative copies need to be 'lossy': I have backups of my old IRIX QIC installation tapes. In order to use these for network installations you need to extract various files from the miniroot like sash and fx. But if I discard those and write the rest back to tape I have a 1:1 copy of the original tape again.

I have used the same methodology with my rather large collection of audio CDs. Initially, I simply ripped them into MP3s. This was in the days of the 486 computer, so disk space was precious and the process was tedious. I was roughly at the letter 'E' in my collection when I gave up. Maybe two years later I resumed, only to find out that I should have used something > 128kbit and that encoders had improved. I should really start all over again. Instead, I started to work my way back from 'Z'. Again, I didn't make it all the way through before I gave up. A couple of years later, I decided that if I was ever going to finish this, it would have to be the last time I ever did this. So I used ExactAudioCopy to backup all audio CDs to FLAC images with matching CUE sheets, log files and accuraterip files to prove the 100% correctness of the backup. I have created various derivative copies of my audio CD backups over the years: MP3's for in the car, M4A files for iTunes, iPods or iPhones etc etc. But (1) these 'convenience copies' are no replacement for the master backup copy, and (2) the idea was a success: I never had to pass my entire CD collection into a computer once more since.  In the age of 10TB hard disks, space is no longer an argument either.
(This post was last modified: 09-02-2021, 12:05 PM by jan-jaap.)
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09-02-2021, 11:02 AM
#19
RE: Irix Iso's???
The purpose of IRIXNet is primarily the latter -- providing derivative copies that can be used on IRIX easily. The former is a task we're not suited to as of yet -- I'm working on getting more storage usable for more archival purposes, but that's simply not our primary scope. Though I agree with and understand your assertion of 1-to-1 copies of EFS images, and others.

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Raion
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09-02-2021, 03:21 PM
#20
RE: Irix Iso's???
I have a couple of original IRIX CDs and want upload them to archive.org. What's the best way to create disk images under Mac OS?

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