CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - Printable Version
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CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - gmcenroe - 11-13-2020
I replaced my CDROM drive with a new (well new to me) CDROM drive in the drive sled. It is a TOSHIBA 6201B unit with SCSI ID set to 6, no additional jumpers installed. If the Indigo2 is in vertical position the tray will not open. OK figured that out by putting it horizontal. Now if I put a CD audio disk in it does not play. If I put an IRIX Applications disk in and click on the CDROM drive disk, I get a Notifier message that says CDROM drive is unloaded. On the 50 pin SCSI ribbon there is an additional 6 pin femaie connector, that is somewhat separate from the ribbon. Is that for the audio connection? The white receptacle on the CDROM for audio only has 3 pins. I can see the CDROM on hinv output.
Any help would be appreciated.
Glenn
RE: CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - weblacky - 11-13-2020
OK going to hit the high points quickly:
If you are referring to this drive:
https://hifiduino.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/xm6401b_productspec_rev1.pdf
You will never be able to boot Irix media, nor read Irix-only application CDs. This drive does not have support 512 Byte block mode (no rear jumper for it). It will work with Audio CDs and normal ISO9660 stuff using normal 1024 byte block mode. But it will never install Irix using it nor read Irix-only media. It's not able to support reading CDs like a hard drive (common trick for SUN and SGI stations).
The separate black connector you mention is for automatically setting the CDROM SCSI ID... I detail that here:http://forums.irixnet.org/thread-1485.html
If you want to use it, you'll have to re-pin it (swap pins). However, since the Indigo2 only has one 5.25" drive bay...no one really uses it. Your CDROM drive should be set to SCSI ID 3 for convention, you should do that manually using jumpers on the drive. You may also need to set the jumpers to enable parity to be in full compliance (HDDs too) The front bays are SCSI ID 1,2,3 from lower right, moving up. Technically you can use ID 6 if you want (no harm). But must Irix instructions for typing in commands assume ID is 3 for Indigo2. Just saying.
No SGI supports taking Audio from a CDROM/DVDROM from the audio connector on the back of the drives. It's all digital, always. No on-drive audio decoding is used or supported. You need to run an app that supports digital audio playing (no CDROM-side decoding). I thought there were a few players in OSS.
The tray issue is purely a hardware issue with your drive. It might be a weak/loose belt in your drive system that has trouble lifting the tray up for ejection when in the vertical position, it also could be a drive that when you have media in the tray... it always fails to open when vertical and because the media gets jammed, saw this many moons ago). You'd have to re-oil with (plastic safe) oil/grease it and possibly change out the belt (not easy) to confirm this.
While I have a couple 5.25" Indigo2 trays with DVD drives. I use them so rarely that I'd always advise an external optical drive (like an old SUN drive works great) so you can share them among your SGI machines (should you get others).
DO NOT INSTALL A mechanical hard drive on the 5.25" sled, the manual says explicitly not to do that, drive will likely overheat and burn out. If you come across a flash disk that works, fine. Just don't use the 5.25" bay for mechanical drives, anything else is fine, like FLASH SCSI readers, etc...
Good luck.
RE: CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - gmcenroe - 11-13-2020
(11-13-2020, 11:44 AM)weblacky Wrote: OK going to hit the high points quickly:
If you are referring to this drive:
https://hifiduino.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/xm6401b_productspec_rev1.pdf
I am using a similar CDROM XM-6201B drive made in 1998. There are no manuals online for this unit.
You will never be able to boot Irix media, nor read Irix-only application CDs. This drive does not have support 512 Byte block mode (no rear jumper for it). It will work with Audio CDs and normal ISO9660 stuff using normal 1024 byte block mode. But it will never install Irix using it nor read Irix-only media. It's not able to support reading CDs like a hard drive (common trick for SUN and SGI stations).
The drive does not even recognize audio CDs, If I try to play them, the Indigo 2 reports No CD loaded, so there must be another problem with the drive, Also according to an old report from an SGI employee Dave Olsen he reported the following:
The basic requirement for Indigos is that the drive be set to use a 512 byte block size. Since
Indigos don't reset the SCSI bus on reboot or halt, you *might* be able to boot your machine in
some other way, set the CD-ROM's blocksize with a devscsi program while the system is up and then
install from it, but I won't swear to it. Late R4K Indigos, Indys, Indigo2s, and Onyx/Challenges all know how to set the block size if
the drive identifies itself as a CD-ROM, reports the block size as something other than 512 bytes in the block descriptor and accepts
the new block size in the block descriptor.
So unless The 6201B cannot transmit at this lower byte rate when instructed by software I am not sure if this applies.
You may also need to set the jumpers to enable parity to be in full compliance (HDDs too) The front bays are SCSI ID 1,2,3 from lower right, moving up. Technically you can use ID 6 if you want (no harm). But must Irix instructions for typing in commands assume ID is 3 for Indigo2. Just saying.
I think SGI hardware manager says any SCSI ID 0-7 is fine as long as they are not duplicated. When I set the jumper to enable parity on bootup the Drive does not show up or get reported on hinv so this must be set to off.
I may try older CDROM drives such as the xm3501b, or xm5301b which are reported to work on Indigo2 again no manuals for these online. Since I recall that I used my old XM6201B drive to install IRIX 6.5 even though that was 15 years ago I don't see why I am having problems with this drive unless the unit I bought on ebay is defective. I have no other hardware to test it on.
Good luck.
RE: CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - weblacky - 11-13-2020
Please do not reference Indigo with Indigo2 systems interchangeably, they are completely different systems, shorthand will only lead to troubles. You asked about an Indigo2, these statements apply to an Indigo2.
OK, I'm hoping this was just a misunderstanding: http://sgidepot.co.uk/cdtips.html
I only use Toshiba SCSI DVD drives, I don't own a single toshiba CDROM drive, all of my SCSI CDROMs are SUN rebranded caddy-loading models because those "just work".
To boot SCSI SGIs, you must either MANUALLY (or have CDROM firmware custom defaulted ...like some drives sold with SUN stations) enable 512 Byte Block mode on optical drives to even recognize the media as..well media. It doesn't matter if it can do it in software with a SCSI command...you won't get that opportunity during OS install. It must work from the first command to load the SASH.ARCs or the miniroot from the CDROMs, there isn't anything before that on OS install from bare metal. Because that's how SGI sold their systems. Also some of these drives have different firmware defaults, for UNIX stations sold with drives, this was done. In PC land...no it will first advertise 2048. I've heard people claim certain PROM versions of Indigo2 can software-switch block size modes...I've never witnessed this working on any SGI. It's a statement someone made, I cannot confirm it, so I don't.
The SCSI bus will absolutely be reset on reboot on an Indigo2 (SGIs love to reset buses...it gets bad sometimes), so I doubt you can issue the command, then preserve the drive state through reboot., it's also highly likely that once the OS loaded from CD, the kernel driver will reset the devices anyway and then the rest of the CDs wouldn't work. I don't know who gave you info that they don't reset...yeah they do...a lot, if something isn't right or they just get a response they don't understand or just because they want to.
On any SCSI system, all SCSI devices must agree on certain settings, parity is one of them. Either EVERYTHING is parity or nothing is parity, so if you just tried setting one device as parity ON and another drive was installed as OFF...yeah you'd have problems. SGIs can work in either way, but the preferred settings recommend by the SGI manual is PARITY ON because it validates all data pulled from media to protect/detect against data corruption on the bus and device caches.
I never said you had to use 1,2,3 (I said you could stay @ ID 6). I just said that the sled's auto-numbering functions (if you hacked them to use them without the official cables) and the documentation (and convention) is to number them in the way I suggested. It's your choice (as I mentioned), however statements in the manuals assume SCSI ID 1 is the booting drive and ID 3 is CDROM, so when following directions you'll need to change what you type. I recommend you go with the convention to make things easier on you.
You absolutely cannot use SCSI ID 0 for anything, that ID is hard-set by the system controller's use and cannot be changed. PC's normally used 7 for higher priority, it is unknown why SGI choose the lowest priority ID of 0 for it's controller.
RE: CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - gmcenroe - 11-14-2020
Thank you for your long email on suggestions for solving my CDROM problem on my Indigo2.
First regarding confusion about Indigo vs Indigo2, that was not my doing, I simply quoted what Marc Olsen wrote elsewhere about CDROMs on SGI systems where he compared the old Indigo to later Indigo2 and other systems.
I also emailed Douglas Mashek for advice and he very quickly responded that my Toshiba 6201B should work on my Indigo2 without a jumper on the Block for 512 boot bytes if there is no such jumper position on these drives, but he has used them successfully. My computer was packed away in the garage for 15 years until last week. The original Toshiba 6201B drive in the computer was one I had installed 15 years ago and a do recall using it to upgrade the OS from IRIX 6.2 to 6.5 without any problems. The most recent problem was that the tray simply would not respond to eject requests from the CDROM itself or from the software. This unit was made in Fe. 1999 and had Hewlett-Packard rebranding on it labeled Ver. No 003 ROM Ver 1037. The replacement drive I bought on ebay was also a Toshiba 6201B but made in July 1999 with Ver No. 002 and ROM Vers BM71114 and without any rebranding by another company. It also would not open the tray if the Indigo2 was in the vertical position on its feet, but when I put it horizontal it would open, but not consistently, sometimes it would reopen after I tried to close it and would keep reopening after it was closed without a CD in the tray. Doug said that sometimes if the gears are cracked that the CD just doesn't get loaded into the proper position for it to be read. Mine seemed pretty smooth but inconsistent in open and close operations.
As far as parity settings, neither of these drives were recognized if Parity was set to on, so I guess the other two SCSI drives, the HDD and Tape drive are also Parity off, I have not checked since I don't have the manuals for those drives.
I did agree on your recommendation set the SCSI ID to 3 and as you said we both know that is not a requirement. I didn't mean to criticize you on that in my post, sorry if you felt that way.
Where do you get your Sun rebranded CDROM drives, maybe I should try that next, if so do they have part numbers or original branding from some other source with part numbers. I don't need a DVD drive yet. I was thinking of trying a Plextor PX-40TSi CDROM that has the 512 block setting, but they all look like junk on ebay.
The seller on ebay said he would take the drive I could not get to work back. He claims he tested it and it read 3 different CDs but didn't give details on what computer he tested it on.
Next I guess I can test my tape drive to see if it still works.
Thanks,
Glenn
RE: CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - weblacky - 11-14-2020
I've been collecting SGIs for over 20 years (since 1998, got my first computer computer in 1993), I got most of my older collection before 2002 when it was just common junk you could get anywhere from a recycler or eBay (by the pallet-load sometimes). My Octanes and Tezros were found after 2010. All my SUN SCSI boxes are 5.25" face-plate-style SUN 411 narrow SCSI caddy-loading 1X/2X optical drives that came in those boxes. You can certainly still buy them on eBay but prices are not closer to $100+ per drive. Cheapest one right now appears to be ~$125.
I found an eBay lot of these last year (several units) and did a best-offer to get the price down. So I now have enough to satisfy my needs for the future. The SUN enclosures are great for old floptical/floppy/SYQEST/IOmega/Optical drives. I keep any old drives I might remove because they still work and are useful (I don't throw anything out).
Understand that all this stuff predates 1998, so it will need to be cleared of dust and power supplies may need rebuilding. Now all the enclosures I've cleaned and tried recently (4 in total of SUN 411 enclosures, and 1 UW SCSI 711 HDD SUN enclosure) have seemed to work fine without rebuilding, it's on my list though. There isn't anything special about the enclosures, you can remove a drive from one and use it normally on an SGI sled or the like. Interestly, many of the old SUN CDROMs I've seen are wrapped in thick plastic sheets to prevent dust migration into the drive from the fan system. Also, many of the SUN drives have custom firmware, so they too lack the 512 jumper...but's because it's their default mode! Most UNIX stations (even NeXT) used the 512 booting trick on optical drives so their firmware didn't have to know what an optical drive was.
SUN really thought of everything back then, amazing that they still work (and I've had 2 modern blu-ray drives fail on me!). I also managed to get a fair number of CDROM caddies before all my sources went greedy and now ask $5+ a caddy...I narrowly got them a year before for almost just under $1 piece, cleared out the shelves when I found them :-)
This stuff was still in use when I was alive and doing computer stuff, I've been fortunate to not have to move in many years, so I don't shed vintage parts. Like all of us, the prices for previously worthless junk is going insane, but that's artificial scarcity for you. I remember when these CDROMs were jokingly used as door stops in computer recycler warehouses...now they are suddenly worth $100+?
I'm mostly just lucky I saved everything (it's my primary hobby/field) and I've kept eBay saved searches since 2007 on these things and buy them when they came up for a fair price. Just takes time. Also helps to sometimes ask recyclers if they have any of this stuff, you'd be surprised what recyclers keep and forget about. I got nearly half of my SGIs from one recycler that way...just happen to have them sitting for a year in the back...saved for whatever...nobody asked about them..until I did (then I bought them all).
RE: CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - gmcenroe - 11-15-2020
I worked for a biotech company that was across the parking lot of Sun Microsystems when they were a year old and occupied one building. Down the street about a half mile was SGI in their purple buildings. Now the old SGI buildings are occupied by Google.
I saw some Sun CDROMS on ebay but they looked to be from newer Sun Ultras with part numbers that I could not match to any specifications on Google searches, or poor pictures from the sellers. Plextor PX-TS40Si CDROMS do have the 512 blocking jumpers and I did find one, but by the time I found out from the seller if it had mounting screw holes on the base for mounting on SGI sled, the unit sold. So my search continues. It is sad to see sellers on ebay who ask high prices for these drives but provide very few pictures or enough information to make a decision to buy. I did see some external Plextor CDROMs that buyers were asking $500 a piece for, ridiculous. I guess I will need to be patient or see if I can find some local SF bay area/Silicon Valley resellers where I can find a usable CDROM from.
RE: CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - gmcenroe - 11-18-2020
Very good news on this problem. I bought another Toshiba 6201B CDROM that was listed on ebay as coming from a Sun workstation with grey faceplate. It was 1999 model and after loading it up, it worked great!! I ran confidence test with both SGI installation disk and audio CD. It recognized both media types with the usual music note on the desktop icon and and arrow for the data disk. The door also opens with the computer vertical without any problem. It does not play audio CDs, but I really don't care so much about that, I just wanted to be able to install software off disks and that worked fine. So bottom line is Toshiba 6201B drives do work as my original one did, the unit that I returned to the seller in Texas was a piece of crap, hopefully I will get my money back from that seller. The error on trying to play audio CD was something like cannot open error 0. I don't know what that means, maybe it just can't read audio CDs. The 6201B does not have byte block jumper setting so it must adjust or is set by default to 512 byte block.
RE: CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - weblacky - 11-18-2020
If it's SUN branded, it's defaulted. As I mentioned most of my SUN enclosure drives don't have a 512 jumper either, yet work. I assume custom firmware.
RE: CDROM problem on Indigo 2 - gmcenroe - 11-18-2020
(11-18-2020, 10:40 PM)weblacky Wrote: If it's SUN branded, it's defaulted. As I mentioned most of my SUN enclosure drives don't have a 512 jumper either, yet work. I assume custom firmware.Seller told me it came out of a Sun Enterprise 250, thanks for your advice!