Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - Printable Version
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Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - Dylanear - 10-21-2020
I am talking to someone about buying a Max Impact board set with 4mb TRAM. They say that after 16 hours of testing, not sure what load or stress test they are using or if it's just left on with no specific load, that a dotted pattern appears on the display. They are offering the board set a discounted price, more offering it as a TRAM sale with free Max Impact boards as is included as a bonus item.
Has anyone had this on a Impact system? Is there any hope that disassembling the board set and reassembling might solve a connection issue between the boards? Is there any hope there's a reasonable fix for this? Or should I assume one of both of the Max Impact boards is faulty with no practical hope for repair? Is it possible the artifacts could be a problem with the TRAM board? Or would flaws in the TRAM only show up in texture mapped 3D imagery, not on the overall display?
RE: Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - Raion - 10-21-2020
That's a TRAM overheating. They've thermal pads that wear out. you can probably just replace the pads on the TRAM heatsinks and get away with it.
RE: Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - weblacky - 10-21-2020
I have a high-Impact, never had this happen (knock on wood) but I've heard of it. TRAM is going bad. Either the TRAM connection or the chips. TRAM.
I thought Jan-Japp had info on this back in the Nekochan days. He claimed you "could" try to reflow the TRAM boards but I remember something about a 50% success rate. The system is overheating and TRAM is failing. Now to be very clear, assuming they ran it with the skins/door on and this happens...TRAM. If they were foolish enough to run the system without the skins for 16 hours...they've just possibly ruined the system by overheating parts of it (more gremlins).
Worst comes to worst, I thought you could remove TRAM modules on all boards (they are daughter cards). So removal to isolate would be the thing. From what I was told heat causes expansion and the daughter board flexes a little and the solder joints crack/become intermittent at max heating. I've also been told this happen in MAX impacts versus the lower models.
Base your decision on price, if they are baking in Max Impact into price...no go. Solid IMPACT cards have been appearing on eBay for cheap. Go that route.
Also, I've never take one apart before...I don't know if they use adhesive or thermal gap filler pads. But yeah, once you isolate the TRAM module, it's worth trying what Raion suggested, if you can properly measure and order the correct thickness of thermal gap filler pad (if that's what they use).
RE: Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - jan-jaap - 10-21-2020
All MaxIMPACT boards have 1MB TRAM. The 4MB means the 3MB TRAM option is installed. (nb: all TRAM on IMPACT is double for performance reasons)
The problem is with the TRAM option modules -- I've never heard of the base 1MB TRAM going bad. The option modules are a PCB with three chips and a heatsink, attached with kapton tape. This warps the PCB, and the chips are fairly large QFP chips. So after a while they develop brittle solder joints and lifted legs. IIRC there are no thermal pads involved.
They also run very hot. This in itself isn't a problem -- after all the base 1MB TRAM runs just as hot. But thermal cycling and stress on the PCB are not a design winner. The Octane TRAMs are much more rigid and usually don't break (they may need occasional re-seating though).
I did indeed dismount a couple of them and reflowed the legs in the lab at work. Nerve-wrecking job, and the success rate mentioned is correct I think. My Indigo2 has working TRAM. I took photos of the procedure, if I find them I'll add them to the thread.
RE: Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - weblacky - 10-21-2020
Thanks for chiming in Jan-Japp!
I wasn't aware of the base TRAM, I thought it was all option modules (just fully loaded), so new info to me.. On the plus side, if you're sure they were QFP, well that's a HECK OF LOT BETTER THEN BGA OR QFN! At least a normal human can work with QFP. Than goodness for olden times!
RE: Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - Dylanear - 10-21-2020
Good info thanks. As mentioned the seller was assuming the problem was with the Max Impact boards and was pricing the sale as a TRAM sale, with the Max Impact boards included "as is" as bonus items. But I was curious why they assumed the TRAMs were not part of the problem?
If they can confirm the whole board set still works fine cold, that the 16 hour test hasn't caused any/much damage in itself I may go ahead and buy this. $150 Canadian, so not too expensive, but shipping and tax on top does make it less appealing. I don't plan on running this machine under full graphics load for 16 hours straight, but I don't want another headache. The machine has a solid impact board in it now that works fine.
I am curious what conditions the seller tested under. Was the machine tested under a hard graphics load? Was the airflow properly managed while testing (skins on). Did they observe this system for 16 hours and only after 16 hours did the problem show up? Or did they just leave it alone for 16 hours and found the problem after 16 hours, but is it possible the problem showed up after 15 minutes and they just left the poor thing with overheating chips for another 15.75 hours?
Maybe I'll see if I can talk them down to an "as is" price on the whole set, because I was suspicious before and more so now after this feedback that the TRAM is not assured to be working and the other boards are not assured to be the issue. Granted a working Max Impact without the added TRAM is probably worth the $150 asking price as I see Solid Impact boards on ebay for about that much. And I see a High Impact listed for $450 US on ebay now, no additional TRAM, just the base 1mb.
Curious about adding additional cooling for the Max Impact boards and/or TRAMs. I have some spare tiny 40mm Noctuas. And perhaps the fan in front of the card area could be upgraded to a higher flow unit?
Also, conceptually related. The 175mhz R10K module I have has a place for a fan and two screws to hold one down, but has no fan? How important is that fan? I have not run this under a heavy CPU load for more than a few minutes at a time, but no signs of problems so far, but not sure there's any good warning of high CPU temps on these machines until you start seeing the effects, crashes, shut downs, etc.
Anyone have suggestions for good replacement/upgrade fans for R10k modules?
RE: Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - weblacky - 10-22-2020
OK, I read your post wrong, I thought you were saying you were buying an entire Indigo2 WITH Max IMPACT. But you're buying just the board set. Yeah in that case, $50-$75 MAX IMO for the IMPACT board set itself, for each WORKING TRAM board, ~$45-50?, for the broken one, $10-15?. I personally don't care about TRAM...doesn't make the machine OS itself any faster, just certain rendering pipeline operations.
So their price isn't actually that off. You have three options (assuming it's the module TRAM and not embedded TRAM that's causing issues):
1. Buy it all, Play TRAM routletter and hope it's the modular TRAM (good bet) and leave it off and run that way.
2. Do #1 then assuming you have the right kind of high-end soldering iron you need attempt a row by row reflow (flux with a small addition of solder on a drag tip, re-dragging the IC pins) of the problematic TRAM. Please don't use hot air on SGIs, most people do it wrong and ruin the PCB layers...use a good iron, you don't need to try to float the IC, assuming it's really QFP!
3. Buy the IMPACT Board set from the guy for like $50 and tell him he can keep is failing TRAM!
You make very agreeable points, "does it take 16 hours" and "how was it tested". You'll never know all the answers to seller questions (they are as mysterious as their pricing :-). If the system stays UP and doesn't crash, I'd place a fair bet on the board set being fine. I'd haggle with that in mind. This hobby is going to be going PCB repair oriented, so if you're leaning that way, the reflow TRAM option (with proper equipment and planning) may make a great project for you.
Let us know how you get on.
RE: Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - Dylanear - 10-22-2020
Yeah, if we can come to a good price I'll see about buying it all and playing with the bits. Even an Max Impact with just the 1MB TRAM would be a nice upgrade over the Soiid Impact in the system now. I'd like to try higher resolutions, the solid will do 1600x1200 @ 57hz, I could try that with my converters (Extron RGB112xi and Geffin VGA to DVI), but I'd love to get 1920x1080p@60. Not sure if Max Impact will do that. I think the 4mb TRAM does add some higher resolutions in addition to speeding up textured GL performance.
I am pretty clumsy with a soldering iron. I'm a reasonably skilled tinkerer and I'm not bad with mechanical tasks with my hands, but I am a simply a poor solderer. I did get a nice digitally regulated iron not long ago. But I'd need to do a plenty of skill building on non valuable boards before I'd consider taking an iron to a TRAM board myself. But perhaps I would pay someone skilled to do that if need be.
Best case, the test was done without proper cooling and no permanent damage was done. I'll ask more questions and keep this thread up to date.
I do have a nice and minty 195mhz R10k Max Impact with 4mb TRAMs in storage in California. That system looked near perfect and worked perfectly last it was started, but that was in 2008! It's been in a non temperature regulated storage this whole time and I suspect that storage sees pretty high temps in summer. Lord know the condition of the caps in the 10 systems in that storage unit. :( My poor neglected babies.
RE: Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - weblacky - 10-22-2020
If you don't mind the risk, I'd be willing to give a hand on reflowing them, but the risk is your's take. I have an old stereo microscope for inspection and a drag tip and all that.
On the video resolution, from what I know, you should give up on 1080p resolutions on most SGIs. Give up. I know people have said they couldn't get an Indigo, Indigo2, Indy, O2 to do it. I know all newer ones with DVI should do it. I forget if SOME Octanes can do it based on graphics board set/interface. Like I was certain DVI DCD Octane interfaces could? I think so.
I know the O2 maxes out on the flat panel resolution (which is still lower). Since PROM and Irix even have different modes. I stay with 17"-19" LCD SOG (got lots) and let them do the 1280x10024 they love and default to. The worse thing I've found is trying to get an SGI OUT of an unsupported video mode with a serial terminal. Never again...1280 all day!
RE: Max Impact dot artifacts after hours of use? - Dylanear - 10-22-2020
In normal times someone in Seattle offering help to me living in Vancouver, BC would be very convenient. Most years I'd make a trip or two to Seattle. Given current times that closed border changes the situation. But I do appreciate the offer. Let's see what comes of the deal and what the hardware does in my hands when if we get there.
As far as 1920x1080, I wouldn't expect anything less than High/Max Impact to do it. Pretty sure anything like the XZ/Elan/Extreme graphics wouldn't do it. Certainly wouldn't expect anything like Indy or even O2 graphics to do it. Pretty darn sure "Odyssey" VPro, at least the higher memory option V8, V12 options can do it. Reality Engine 2 might do it? Infinite Reality surely would. I seem to recall back in the day the first desktop machines to be able to do it had a pretty bad GL graphics performance penalty, so no one was using that resolution. But I can't recall if that was on Indigo2 Impact, Octane "E" Impact or Octane VPro. I only seem to recall SGIs with HD monitors being used for HD playback in the late 90s, and maybe on some posh Flame/Inferno suites?
Yeah, I'd rather not be doing too much hacking. Having to fix a stuck bad video mode with a serial cable or miniroot booting would be best avoided. Ideally I'd get the desired resolution added to the list in the standard settings, that way if I didn't confirm after the mode switch, it would default back to the previous mode.