Neon Genesis Evangelion - Printable Version
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Neon Genesis Evangelion - Raion - 03-09-2020
I'd to start off with the usual:
I didn't grow up with the series, and started with the Rebuild series in college in 2013, soon after really becoming an anime fan. I really enjoyed the Rebuild series, so I watched the original and was underwhelmed, I even disliked it due to Shinji seeming even more like a pussy, and Asuka seeming to be a bitch for no reason.
Eventually, I recently rewatched it with my now-ex girlfriend (Long story, but she's a fan) and I enjoyed it.
It took me years to understand why I didn't like the original, but I now understood why I came to that conclusion: You shouldn't start with Rebuild. The overall differences are quite vast, and I think they each have their own charm.
Now that I fully understand Shinji and the reason that he's so fucked up, I was able to resonate with him. I also have to say EoE is a better ending than the TV version. The TV version is just... strange, but I can see the appeal.
One person I don't really like is Rei, and the reason is because that she's too reserved. Being that she's... well I'm not gonna spoil it, but she's a unique individual, that explains why i prefer the Rebuild version of her.
Asuka, however, I heavily resonate with for a variety of reasons. Namely, I understand exactly how a person would feel when their own mother would reject them for a doll. While that's not necessarily my situation, I have a very negative relationship with a parent of mine due to that parent's selfishness and general lack of understanding.
Overall though, now that I understand the series, It's by far one of my favorites.
Let's talk about this more. What did you like about it? Have you seen Rebuild?
RE: Neon Genesis Evangelion - Jacques - 03-10-2020
I started rewatching the series a couple of months ago, need to pick it up again as I usually get lost with the plot line a few episodes before the end. It's a bit like the writer started tripping out on the good stuff when he got to the end! Shinji usually gives me the shakes as I just want to strangle him. Not helped by the fact I have the dub and not the sub, the english voice actors drive me mad.
I've not seen Rebuild yet, will look out for that after the series.
RE: Neon Genesis Evangelion - weblacky - 03-11-2020
I did some research on this series a couple years ago. I too liked the reboot Movies 1.11, 2.22. 3.33 much better and always asked myself why was there so much depressive and odd scenes in the series. Well I read that's because the creator was a manic depressive (read in articles online). Suicides, odd sexual issues, the random staring into space, and the odd/badly explained origins of man all stem from this. The manic depressive stuff was wiped out in the reboot...that's why it's different.
I did have to go to other sources to explain what the eggs were, angels, and Shinji's issues. But yeah, the series creator had a known mental disorder/condition and that was purposely shown in his work because he wanted to convey the ups and down and self-defeating mindset he himself had (again, or so I read online).
After these facts were introduced to me, the series made much more sense (given context).
I will say, to this day...it's a wonder that was hand-drawn and still some of the longest lasting and best fighting scenes in Anime history. I still recommend it to people...but NOT an introduction to Anime...only later.
RE: Neon Genesis Evangelion - Intuition - 03-12-2020
I had the exact opposite experience. I really fully loved the Original run. Completely related to Shinji.
Even loved the full on existential ending and theory of consciousness of the original run.
I didn't like the newer series as much upon first watch. I appreciated it but felt like it was just Hideaki caving into less intelligent audiences instead of sticking with his more heady philisophical guns. Feeling that so many great sci-fi or deep texts have been ruined for the sake of marketing and sales.
Later though, watching it all again, I fully appreciated the context of the smaller arcs. It didn't diminish my love for the original run but I could see why Hideaki tried to find a way to bridge the heavier elements into a more parsed context.
I am finally going to rewatch the new series in prep for the summer release of 3+1 this year.. Finally. End of Evangelion... again... again.
glad to see I have peeps to discuss it with.BTW, I read books like Concise Yoga Vasistha, which is not the same as Vashistha, and these texts are quite similar in tone of dealing with the consciousness being placed in a harsh world but being forced to deal with vulnerability and the psychology of empathic feedback loops trying to validate themselves through a labyrinth of narrative reality.
The first great metaphor of the children being inside the minds of the mechs fighting the enemy was such a triple allegory when you think of kids trying to master their own new pubescent lives which are these inflictions of nature placing desire that we would like to claim authorship over.
The end was a bit more controlled than people assume and I appreciate Hideaki not trying to spoon feed it to people.
It reminds me of how most people will not understand the end of Akira. Or even the scene in Ghost in the Shell when the Major looks at the screen and describes the consciousness.
Japan has truly faced the existential and pointed the mirror at the mirror culturally in a post ww2 contemplation.
Very few have awakened that much in their entire lives. I think of Japan in Crisis and I see a collective consciousness that deals with crisis a lot more evolved than most other cultures. Fukashima was tragic but the response to it is unparalleled. Fukashima 50 is not something I see repeating elsewhere if the same happaned again on different soil.
Meanwhile. ... back on the ground where gravity works... this little series made a grand attempt to condense it all for the general world and I think that it was mostly received very well. Abstractions aren't easy.
I guess I am just trying parallel all of this atomic tragedy to the reason why Japan has a leap in contemplative energy story wise. Miyazaki, Hideaki, etc all grew up having that history to live with and although it is terrifying you can see that it has created a heightened sense of awareness.
We are all the benefactor of such musings disguised as entertainment.
Uh oh. Now I've gone on too long. Anyways. I am very excited to see the new work.
*steps off soapbox.*
RE: Neon Genesis Evangelion - stormy - 04-10-2020
Yes I watched the original series first and then the reboot movies. I don't mind the reboots for the nice visuals and great fight scenes, but I wouldn't swap them for the original story if pushed.
Related:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McVhkxU7EAg
RE: Neon Genesis Evangelion - Raion - 04-27-2020
The Rebuild movies are now available free on Youtube.
As for my recent rewatch, I can't wait for the last one. If I go to Japan this summer, I'll see it in theaters.
RE: Neon Genesis Evangelion - lunatic - 04-27-2020
I haven't seen Rebuild, but I have seen the original OVA series some years ago. I liked it very much the first time and it became even more fascinating the more clinical knowledge and experience I had.
One key aspect to understanding Evangelion are psychoanalytic concepts of character organization, personality structure, and motivation. Many characters in the Anime are unable to cope with loss (Shinji losing his mother, Asuka losing her mother, Gendo losing his wife, Misato losing her father and so on...). They draw motivation from these inner motives. Shinji is a character with a depressive-dependent personality. He clings to unhealthy and abusive relationships simply to avoid being alone. At the same time, he does not trust relationships, and is unable to feel commitment and secure attachment. Asuka is a wonderful narcissistic personality, ambivalent between greatness and crushing insecurity. She seeks constant attention and affirmation. She is unable to cope with any kind of failure and being-less-then perfect, because for her this attacks her whole worth as a person. The key isn't her being rejected by her mother, but her interpretation that she was rejected, because she wasn't good enough, not worthy of her mother's love. Whatever Shinji and Asuka do is an attempt to compensate for the past. They are both unable to see the true motivation, because it's unconscious. For example, at the beginning Shinji feels unhappy with having company. He rather prefers being alone. Over the course of the series you learn that he prefers being alone out of fear of being left alone - like in the sense that if you don't have a girlfriend, it is impossible that your girlfriend will reject you and leave you. He generally does what he is told, in order to keep other people happy, so they won't leave him. There is a moment in the OVA when he realizes that he enjoys being commended by his father. The core idea however is not that he is like Asuka. Rather, being commended was never really important for him. He would rather keep the same old dismissive, abusive relationship he has known for years, because he is unable to deal with change. Having this abusive relationship gives him a sense of security and stability, because most of all he is afraid of loss.
Rei is special, because she represents the disorganized personality. She represents a state of constant psychosis where neither depressive (Shinji) nor narcissistic (Asuka) motivations matter, because the ego or personality as a whole is shattered and destroyed. She is reserved, because she does not care about being loved. Her inner topic is much more primitive: Does she even exist as a person? Since you liked the image of Asuka's mother playing with the puppet and rejecting Asuka... Rei is the puppet. It's just Gendo playing with her. Her reason to exist, her meaning in life is bound to a purpose she does not control. Like a hammer being used to build something. When you put the hammer in the toolbox, the hammer won't begin a relationship with the screwdriver.
The problem with the Evangelion OVA is that you notice that they ran out of money and rushed it to completion, so many scenes were reused and topics were left open. The EoE movie should have been included in the OVA to give more closure. You essentially watch two series in parallel. One is about the robots. In the other series you watch Shinji and the other characters doing therapy for 20+ episodes. The problem is that both endings differ psychologically. In one ending (OVA) Shinji accepts the existential limits of life and can openly confront the world and relationships, because he has accepted himself as a person. In the other ending (EoE)...well... he gets himself a puppet: A single relationship that will only serve him. The rest of the world does not exist anymore for him. He essentially ends up like Asuka's mother.
On a meta-level, most viewers of Evangelion experience this feeling of not having coherence and closure about the OVA and EoE, because so many things are left to the viewer's imagination and interpretation. This feeling of not having coherence and closure is common for many patients who often deal with traumatic experiences for many years. The author essentially puts the viewer in the shoes of a patient (or the characters). Now the viewer needs therapy, in order make sense of what he has experienced.
Or maybe it's all about the giant monsters vs. robot battles. Who knows... :-)
RE: Neon Genesis Evangelion - Intuition - 05-05-2020
Applause @ Lunatic.
Very nice breakdown. Very similar to the way I interpreted the individuals. I was looking for more in Rei to explain the most rudimentary identity as if it was better to be content than to keep searching for more awareness of who she is as if the subconscious had already surrendered to the void and just quietly hopes that whatever purpose she was supposed to serve that she knew it mattered to someone else more than it could ever matter to her.
Regardless of this being understood the ultimate narrative goal with Rei is in creating a visceral sense of desire and repulsion because we sense innocence that will never understand how it is being utilized to achieve goals for the guilty. Rei is pretty much an empty vessel that is filled with the hopes and desires of others. We never really know her. We hear Shinji's thoughts but we are always on the outside of Rei. It is really fascinating to me how my entire interaction with Rei was basically a narrative Rorschach. What was I seeing? It was almost more indicative of my own psyche and fears and worries about the character's pain or joy. Just like Shinji, he gets in these awkward situations with Rei but she is completely dispassionate about any of it. The reveal late in the series felt correct and earned instead of cheap. They really lined up her whole persona towards that idea being purposeful.
Shinji seems to hold on to his sensitivity as is it is the only part of him where he can get a sober view of any situation and yet it is the very same sensitivity that creates all of the conflict that breaks him. He wants his father to reflect and value his sensitivity, or anyone to reflect it from any direction, but never seems to find a place to affirm that his vulnerability is the virtue that he bases all of his judgments upon. They need him to be sensitive in order to achieve what they need but can never give him what he wants without destroying the chance of their survival. This is the snail crawling across the razor throughout the show. Very effective way to lens the viewer into any of the themes.
RE: Neon Genesis Evangelion - lunatic - 05-06-2020
(05-05-2020, 02:59 PM)Intuition Wrote: Very nice breakdown. Very similar to the way I interpreted the individuals. I was looking for more in Rei to explain the most rudimentary identity as if it was better to be content than to keep searching for more awareness of who she is as if the subconscious had already surrendered to the void and just quietly hopes that whatever purpose she was supposed to serve that she knew it mattered to someone else more than it could ever matter to her.
Regardless of this being understood the ultimate narrative goal with Rei is in creating a visceral sense of desire and repulsion because we sense innocence that will never understand how it is being utilized to achieve goals for the guilty. Rei is pretty much an empty vessel that is filled with the hopes and desires of others. We never really know her. We hear Shinji's thoughts but we are always on the outside of Rei. It is really fascinating to me how my entire interaction with Rei was basically a narrative Rorschach. What was I seeing? It was almost more indicative of my own psyche and fears and worries about the character's pain or joy. Just like Shinji, he gets in these awkward situations with Rei but she is completely dispassionate about any of it. The reveal late in the series felt correct and earned instead of cheap. They really lined up her whole persona towards that idea being purposeful.
You could very well see the "Rorschach" figuratively. Remember in the first episode at the beginning where Shinji sees Rei standing in the street? Rei is much more a screen for the projections of others than she is her very own character. It is often unclear if the writer uses Rei to advance her own story or the story of some other protagonist. What you and initially Raion have described about Rei's personality - being calm, apathetic, dispassionate, almost autistic, the "empty vessel" for something else - is actually a reasonable clinical assessment. Conceptions of schizophrenia commonly distinguish between "positive" and "negative" symptoms, as in "positive = more than usual", i.e. hallucination, delusion, and "negative = less than usual", i.e. apathy, anhedonia, reduced motivations, feelings of emptiness, etc. Modern medication can in most cases take away the positive symptoms, but many patients remain with negative symptoms for years.
Many characters in Evangelion represent some sort of mental health problem. The sad part of the story is that most of them ultimately lose the fight against their problem in the end. I don't want to spoil anything for people who might be interested in seeing the show now... but in the same way that we essentially wait for Asuka's narcissistic breakdown to happen, it seems only natural that Rei pretty much dissolves into the void. For pretty much every character, their greatest fears become true. This is also visible in most social interactions. Most characters do not get from others what they want. The interaction between Shinji and Rei is so awkward, because Shinji sees something in Rei (if you have seen the show, it is obvious what that is...) that she cannot give him. On a meta-level the show is really about rejection, depression, and despair. Of course one should keep in mind that these characters are more like prototypes. They tell a story. Real patients aren't like that.
Again coming back to Rorschach (btw: that's an old psychological test, where the participant sees an ink blob on a card and has to tell what he thinks he sees. The professional applying the test then interprets the answer.). As a test, this method is very unreliable and not very objective. The test result depends on what the professional wants to see (or not to see). Obviously Rorschach is basically never used anymore... However, the characters in Evangelion are written so that people can see things in them, sometimes crossing the line between deliberately obscuring a character's backstory for a big reveal later and bad writing. Still, I am really impressed with what they did with an Anime series. It's like the opposite of recent Star Wars, where the visuals and production quality are great, but you really wish they had spent more time on developing the story and screenplay. I guess it's the engaging story and characters that keep people interested in the long run.
RE: Neon Genesis Evangelion - Intuition - 05-07-2020
I use the term Rorschach purely in the context of saying that you read into it what you will. Not really invoking it as a standard of measurement but rather the reference to how writers can leave things ambiguous because it lends itself to interpretation. I feel like Rei is setup this way. We are allowed to kind of fill in the blanks for ourselves. See what we want to see in the inkblot of the character. But, your analysis is very similar to how I feel in general between Shinji and Rei.